Episode 003: Real Talk on Talent | Fix Your Recruitment Process + Strategies for Attracting Top Talent and Driving Growth

Speaker 1: 0:06

Welcome to Real Talk on Talent, a human resources podcast where we talk about talent acquisition, recruiting and all things hiring. All right, Dina, welcome back. Hi, Hillary, Excited to be here with you as always I know Real Talk on Talent, my friend.

Speaker 3: 0:27

Here we go, let's do it.

Speaker 1: 0:29

I'm going to talk about people specifically throwing out culture and core values and culture-based hiring and all of the fun things about great people. Yes, Now we're going to talk about your favorite thing Process.

Speaker 3: 0:42

That is true.

Speaker 1: 0:43

Okay, let's start out. Just give me your emotional reaction to why you care so much about process, specifically for the recruitment function.

Speaker 3: 0:53

Yes, well, because if you can't hire, it's because of your process.

Speaker 1: 1:00

I love how succinct that is.

Speaker 3: 1:01

If you're having issues, it's probably your process as well, yes, yes, that's the first place to look, just from an operational perspective. Process, regardless of recruitment, whatever function it is. It streamlines everything. You know who to go to for what. It enables you to scale, you can grow. So a good process is just the foundation.

Speaker 1: 1:27

Yes, yes. And one thing that I often see as we talk about process and organizations, especially more established organizations, say oh yeah, we've got a process. What they mean is that people are following a set of steps to get where they need to go.

Speaker 3: 1:45

Yes.

Speaker 1: 1:45

But when you talk about a process, or when you and I sit down with an organization and say, hey, you need to fix your process, they often say, well, we have one. Yes, but, that's not what you're talking about.

Speaker 3: 1:55

No, you know what I'm so glad you made that distinction. Okay, so can you define?

Speaker 1: 1:59

when you say, if you're having issues, hiring process is probably one of your main issues, what do you mean when you say this is what your process should be? Define that word, yeah.

Speaker 3: 2:12

So when I'm thinking of the recruitment process, I am thinking of everything from a new position getting approved to the day a candidate walks in the door and it's every step. We say candidate for their first day of work.

Speaker 1: 2:28

You know what Great, great point. A new hire walks in the door yes day one, and it's every step in between.

Speaker 3: 2:35

But it's not only each step, it is who is responsible for that step? What are the expectations around that responsibility? When are you supposed to get back to somebody? What are the decision points? What happens when there's a yes, what happens when there's a no, what happens when there's a maybe? And so the recruitment process should include the candidate, the recruiter, the hiring manager, anybody who's assisting in the onboarding process. If there's an admin person who's meeting a candidate at the front door, they need to be included in the process. So when I think of a process, I see a Vizio workflow. We love a Vizio workflow and there's I mean gosh, I don't know there's 50 boxes on here and they're color coded to different people, and then there's a subsequent page of notes associated with it that's going to really outline the detailed expectations around what a person is doing within the process.

Speaker 1: 3:35

So you hit on a couple of things that I think are especially critical. One is documented. Yes, it's literally written down and it's distributed to everyone who's involved with it.

Speaker 1: 3:44

So that everyone understands what they're accountable for, what they're being held accountable to and how their action or inaction impacts the overall process. You also talked about candidate experience. You didn't say those words, but when you talk about the candidate journey, the recruitment process needs to take them into mind, because a good process should make it as easy as possible for them. Yes, so in your first podcast, you even said it's a recruiter's job to make it easier for the candidate and the hiring manager.

Speaker 3: 4:18

Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 4:19

So the candidate journey and the hiring manager experience have to be taken into consideration when building that workflow and then talking about those decision points and SLAs on turnaround time so you can have a quick time to fill a fast hiring experience.

Speaker 3: 4:35

So you don't lose candidates?

Speaker 1: 4:36

Yes, so how many times have people lost candidates because they got stuck between handoff between recruiter and hiring manager? All the time, all the time.

Speaker 3: 4:46

And there's ways to eliminate that with a good process. I love that. There we go.

Speaker 1: 4:51

So when you sit down and you are, let's talk about red flags when you sit down with an organization or you have a TA leader come to you and say, Dina, I'm a high growth company. We now need to double the amount of hires we need to make. What are some of the red flags that you see that may indicate an issue in the hiring process?

Speaker 3: 5:12

So usually what I'll do is I'll ask people where are you losing candidates in your process? Are they applying and you're not getting them on the phone? Have you phone screened them and they're not showing up for interviews? Have you sent them to the hiring manager and you're not hearing back? So, if you're lucky, data will tell you where you're losing the people. That doesn't always happen, so sometimes it's a conversation with various stakeholders to understand their perception of where candidates are falling off.

Speaker 1: 5:41

I think that's a really important thing is perception, because do they know? Like are there times when they don't even know or they think they know, but then when you start to dig in then it's clear that's not actually the problem.

Speaker 1: 5:54

And then that seems like it'd be a red flag that, oh, it's not candidate flow, it's not your recruiter, it's the fact that your recruiter is working in a funnel where you're losing candidates left and right because of X or Y. How do you diagnose that? So pretend there is no reporting, because reporting is contingent on a good process. So how do you go ahead?

Speaker 3: 6:19

So you have to talk to the recruiter. You have to understand where they think the bottleneck is. Then you need to talk to not one hiring manager, you need to talk to a few hiring managers and it's done. Well, you'll be able to pick up trends. Okay, so you'll be able to see that the recruiters doing really good with these three hiring managers. This one hiring manager is saying listen, the recruiters just not. You know, these candidates aren't coming through. Well, let's talk about it. Is that really the problem? So I think a larger data set allows you to identify more qualitative points that could be messing up the process.

Speaker 1: 6:54

So I've got a question on that. So if they say, okay, it's great with these three hiring managers, but this fourth hiring manager is having issues, how do you distinguish where that's a people issue versus a process issue? Yeah, or just kind of walk me through how you navigate additional discovery on that kind of a thing, yeah.

Speaker 3: 7:12

Yeah, so usually what I like to do in these scenarios is really sit down with the hiring manager and the recruiter and have the recruiter explain their process to the hiring manager. This is what I'm doing, this is what I do with other managers and this is how it works, and then the manager will explain. Well, this is my perception of where things are falling apart, and oftentimes what we will find is there's just misaligned expectations, got it?

Speaker 1: 7:41

You know people don't know what to expect. So often when we talk about a broken process, it's not that there's. I'm picturing like a car going down the road and like one of the wheels is falling off. It's not always that. It's just that without that documented, very clear, cut, very structured process, it opens a door for nuance or confusion that can lead to that broken element.

Speaker 3: 8:02

You're 100% correct, and so I'll give you an example that we see all the time. So we never want to send a hiring manager 40 resumes and say, pick out one that looks good. We want to send them four to five candidates who are great, correct. Hiring managers don't always know that. Lots of hiring managers are used to looking at every resume and picking them themselves. That's a really good point. And so when you insert a recruiter now for the first time or whatever, and the recruiters only sending them for candidates, the hiring manager is going I'm not getting any candidates. This isn't working.

Speaker 2: 8:31

The process is broken.

Speaker 3: 8:33

This recruiter is not doing their job Expectations.

Speaker 1: 8:35

Completely, and that is a really good example. When you're thinking about, maybe, a mid-sized company or a company that's now hit a tipping point of needing to invest on their internal teams, how is it the same or different when you think about a large, established organization? So picture some of our large healthcare accounts, okay, so is it a different discussion at all? Or how can that expectation rear its head when you have a much larger organization?

Speaker 3: 9:02

So I think that the problems are going to be the same if you're a 100-person shop or a 10,000-person shop, so it's typically the same problems. Really, it's just following a consistent process to discuss your recruitment process and to diagnose it. To me, it's really all around education and making sure people understand what your role is, and so when we sometimes, when we partner with large healthcare organizations, we will come in and we will change the recruitment process, and when we're showing this to managers, we're showing this to them in several different ways. Oftentimes we're going to go do a road show where we're doing presentations to hundreds of managers and saying this is the new process, and to that recruiters are having individual conversations where they're actually sending them the visio. I want to tell you what I'm going to do. Here's what your part of this is. So it's education and reiteration.

Speaker 1: 9:57

Yep, I love that. I also think that you bring up a good point. It's the same issue, it's just at a different scale with a different number of people. And one thing that I think is a mistake with larger organizations is you the bigger your team is, the more you do have to have consistency, the more you do have to have clear-cut ownership Expectations. That can often feel like, oh, that is our process and oh, it is written down but it's in a drawer and we haven't retrained our people on it. Or this is my other big hot topic We've introduced a new technology but it's not been layered into the process. Or we don't think about how a new technology changes the process.

Speaker 1: 10:38

In my mind and you keep referencing the visio for anyone who doesn't know we're just talking about a technology we like to use where you can actually map out a workflow with those decision points actually mapped in. The way that I like to think about it is the candidate flow is kind of that core process like the stepping stones in that process. But in that then you layer on who owns the action or who's responsible for moving the individual, that candidate, to the next stage. And then, additionally to that, then you say what technology intersects at this point in the process, whether it's the ATS, like the candidate comes into the ATS and you're dispositioning them directly in there, or we want to test out a new AI sourcing tool that bubbles up candidates already within our system.

Speaker 1: 11:31

Well, how does that impact decision trees? Or where you're more effective in your communication, and that's something that you think about bigger organizations. You have to think through that, but I think every year you should go back and challenge yourself to say is this still the most correct? How have changes or growth or I keep going back to technology or new people You've hired new recruiters. Are they fully aware of what that looks like? And how do we continue to fine tune and expand and make it better?

Speaker 3: 12:02

Yeah, yeah, so you're absolutely correct that this should be reviewed yearly. And if you're a large organization or a mid-sized organization and you have this established process I'm going to go back to my data hat here. You then have the data to really look at each step within your process and figure out where are the opportunities to optimize.

Speaker 1: 12:22

Yes, I think layering report and if you don't have the data, you need to layer the reporting on. And I don't want to get too far down the data funnel because this will probably be what we talk about, like the process and data overlap will probably be one of our first topics. But you have to understand when you have these decision points that are critical to tracking success, where are you tracking that information and are you tracking the correct version of that information?

Speaker 3: 12:50

as well. Yes, so this goes. When we build a workflow we're going to have, we're actually going to put the ATS steps within that workflow as well. So if a candidate is interviewing with a client, there's a note recruit or move candidate to the interview status within the applicant tracking system.

Speaker 1: 13:08

It sounds so basic or maybe even overly constructed. Can you over build a process?

Speaker 3: 13:19

So I think you can over complicate a process. I don't know if you can over build it, but I think you can over complicate it.

Speaker 1: 13:25

You can't over document it, but you can over engineer it. Correct, there we go. That's fair. So let's talk about how someone should approach this. Let's start with a mid-sized high growth company and let's say they have their first recruiter. They're just bringing them on. How should a company go about building their process when it's all kind of new?

Speaker 3: 13:48

So, first off, if you're hiring your first recruiter, make sure you hire the right person for that role and so.

Speaker 3: 13:54

I'll just say this very quickly Anybody's first true recruiter hire should be somebody that's the equivalent of a senior recruiter, somebody who can come in. They can manage their own desk effectively, they know what they're doing. Do not promote your accounts payable clerk into a recruiter. What about an HR generalist? I'm on the fence about that. I'm on the fence about that. If they have the skills, If they have the skills and the interest yes, if they have the skills and the interest, the interest is the big part there. So I think if you hire a recruiter who knows their stuff, most recruiters are going to come in and they're going to know what a good process is.

Speaker 1: 14:32

So that's a great place to start. So you are looking to build your process. You're saying that hire someone who may have more education than you need for just a day-to-day recruiter and have them help you develop that process. Who else should be involved in that? Because if it's a new person coming in, let's say it's an external hire, they don't know the organization. So who do you generally recommend should work with that person to build out the process?

Speaker 3: 14:59

Obviously, if there's anybody in HR, they need to be involved in that Chances are. They've maybe had to do some of this hiring so they have the historical knowledge of what's been going on there.

Speaker 1: 15:08

They know what the quote-unquote process is Exactly.

Speaker 3: 15:11

Talk to hiring managers. You probably don't need to talk to all of them, but you need to talk to the key hiring managers, the ones where you're putting through a good amount of volume.

Speaker 1: 15:20

I think ops is incredibly important because, ops is going to understand some of the intersections with technology, maybe understanding how a business is trying to expand and grow. I think that's just even just to have the expertise of someone who has an operational mindset, understanding how hiring ties into the larger organization. Yeah, you're 100% correct.

Speaker 3: 15:40

I love that.

Speaker 1: 15:41

Big companies because we may have a TA leader who says again, we have a 15-person recruiting team. We service three different locations. We have a process. Let's say it's January 1st. Q1 priority is you should go look at your process. How do they start?

Speaker 3: 16:00

Yeah. So, I love asking our customers which, in this case, is going to be our candidates and our hiring managers for their feedback. What are your interactions with the recruitment team? How do you like working with?

Speaker 1: 16:20

us. What do you think goes well? Third party perspective Exactly. That's a really good point. Exactly.

Speaker 3: 16:24

So that gives you opportunities to really work on your internal customer service.

Speaker 1: 16:28

I like that.

Speaker 1: 16:29

I took a little bit of a different approach. My first thought was how does hiring tie into your larger growth and business goals and how can you start where it's going to have the biggest impact to those goals? So if you know you're going to have seasonal hiring, so you're going to have a big crunch of candidates coming through, dot right down what your process is and start to think about where you're going to have those pain points and start there with saying is this, is there something we need to look at, to change the process? Because I think if you have a structure that's run pretty well, that has a lot of people to it, so you don't necessarily want to throw the baby out the bathwater and start over saying what are the things we're going to have to preemptively look for? Or what are the things I, as an HR leader and being asked to do and look at your process through that framework, to really challenge yourself, to be honest about what opportunities are there, even if nothing is glaringly broken. Yeah, I think that's a great opportunity.

Speaker 3: 17:30

Yeah, no, that's. That's a great point, and so we're. We're working with a partner right now, and they have seasonal hiring needs. There are 80% of hiring that they do comes down in three months, and so for them, they could look at completely revamping their process, where the recruiters were taking a less active role in candidate screening and managers were having to do more of that, or they could look at bringing out additional resources.

Speaker 1: 17:51

That's an interesting thing Do you ever recommend having a like a temporary process, Like here's your standard process, then here's your three month process, or is that overly complicated?

Speaker 3: 18:03

Yeah, you know, I think sometimes it works. Okay, I think sometimes it works. I would. I'm I'm a fan of keeping process consistent and not changing it for for short periods of time, but I think it depends on what the alternatives are. So if the alternative R is additional headcount, maybe you can't afford that, maybe that's not on the budget. So you know, I think it depends on the, the business needs and the business situation.

Speaker 1: 18:28

Yeah, that makes sense, because, if you say, our process is the same but because of seasonality, we're going to need we're going to need to double the size of our recruitment team for three months. We're going to bring in these HR generalists, we're going to have some temp employees come in. Here's the new decision maker, because the team is larger, yeah. Or here's the new way things have to be adapted because of the volume. Even though it's not a permanent investment, the process is still going to be the same, but we have to have a little bit of a nuance change to account for the growth or expansion.

Speaker 3: 18:59

And you know, in those types of scenarios what I like to do is look at kind of supplemental recruitment options. So to me, when let's just go back to this kind of peak season hiring, bulk hiring, that you need to do.

Speaker 1: 19:11

By the way, my background is in like peak warehouse hiring.

Speaker 3: 19:14

Okay.

Speaker 1: 19:15

Every time we talk about it, I get really excited, but also really stressed out yeah, so keep going.

Speaker 3: 19:20

So I think hiring events are a great way to tackle these things. So you know, I remember we were working with a hospital system. They were opening up a new wing, or actually was a new tower, and so we needed to hire close to 100 people between CNAs, RNs, whatever it was. In our regular yeah, in our regular day to day hiring, that wasn't going to happen. And so, you know, for a certain amount of time, recruiters set aside a couple hours to build a really great hiring day, and what we did was we had a hiring day where we had just hundreds of candidates in and out. So you're not necessarily disrupting a process for three months. Instead, it's kind of just a spike for a day. Let's get out there and make it happen.

Speaker 1: 20:00

You bring up a really interesting point around the recruiter day in the life, and I do. We don't have time to get fully into day in the life. We'll probably maybe we'll talk about this at a different time but when we think about process, we framed it up in the context of the candidate journey, which I stand by because that is ultimately what?

Speaker 1: 20:20

you're paying attention to, but understanding what a recruiter's day to day life looks like At Human, we literally have a strategy called day in the life where we help time block and build out kind of here's what your standard week should look like to be, more most effective with your time, to protect your time, to prioritize your high investment efforts.

Speaker 1: 20:42

But I had not considered how a day in the life is actually a component of the process, because you have this overarching workflow where the candidate knows what they have to do but to then say, great, well, this is how a process impacts your day to day life and how you can stay on top of it, because you're thinking about it at that week daily level and how you move people through it.

Speaker 1: 21:05

I really like that. I didn't even consider it. That also is an interesting way to adapt your process without changing the overall workflow. I like that. Yeah, dina, this is why you're in charge. Good thought. There we go. I don't know if I am Hillary, I love it All right. Any last thoughts on process when to start?

Speaker 3: 21:22

No, we talked about that Well where to start. So let me just tell you where I see people going wrong on process sometimes. Oh, love this this is one of my favorites. So first process thing I see is over-complicating it. So assessments? I love assessments, but let's make sure that you are using assessments for the right positions in the right way and that you can actually correlate assessment results to success in a position. So we will see people use assessments not knowing if they are actually predicting any type of hiring outcome or job performance.

Speaker 1: 21:58

And so how does how to tie that into process for me, Like when, because I completely hear you on this and I'm thinking, is there a way to validate that through the process? Or do you need to build that into the process Like kind of talk me through that? Yeah.

Speaker 3: 22:11

So I think assessment validation is something that you have to do after you have a good enough size data set. So it's going to depend on the volume of people. My guess is you probably need at least a year. But what we do see is we see assessments used throughout recruitment processes and at various stages. So it is important that if you are going to use an assessment in your process, you understand what stage it is. So is the assessment used a pre-candidate interview for hiring managers to ask them questions, or is the assessment used post job offer, more as an onboarding and candidate development tool? So I think people can sometimes mix up where assessment goes in the process.

Speaker 1: 22:53

So understanding it, not just in the candidate journey of what they experience. But where does it make sense to put different validation points or knock out like decision trees as it as it matters within?

Speaker 3: 23:06

the process. How does it relate to the overall talent? True, yeah.

Speaker 1: 23:10

So yeah, to really understand what you need to know and to like layer that in as you go throughout the hiring process while being effective because, again, the end of the day, our whole goal is to get quality hires at the fastest time, to hire Correct Without totally destroying your poor recruiters.

Speaker 3: 23:27

Yeah, yeah, yep, yep, yep. No, you're totally right. You're totally right. Interviewing Okay, okay. So if you're going to have a multi-level interview process, let's make sure everybody's not asking the same questions.

Speaker 1: 23:38

Oh yes, oh yes, that happens so often we need a whole section on interview processes because, you referenced this, I think, last time. There are so many different interview types and they all have different values and purposes, and now you're bringing in. How do you layer the interviews on top of?

Speaker 3: 23:54

each other.

Speaker 1: 23:55

Yes, that is yeah, let's make that our next process. We can totally make that a whole one.

Speaker 3: 23:59

Yes, let's make that our next process. I love it. I love it Because so often you'll be like you'll talk to candidates and they'll go oh, how was the interview? Well, you know, it's kind of the same interview I had four days ago.

Speaker 2: 24:08

Different people You're like oh okay. Well, that's a little awkward.

Speaker 3: 24:13

So last thing I'll say is where I tend to see a lot of organizations lose really good candidates is kind of this handoff from recruiter to hiring manager.

Speaker 1: 24:23

Okay, tell me more about that.

Speaker 3: 24:24

So hiring managers first job is in recruitment Right.

Speaker 1: 24:28

Okay, we talked about that earlier. When they're used to screening or going through a dozen resumes yeah, when in reality they should just be looking at the top candidates to go through those, yeah, and in reality I don't even want my managers looking at those top candidates, I just want them interviewing them.

Speaker 3: 24:42

So to the extent that we can eliminate hiring managers having to schedule any interviews or reviewing resumes and just have recruiters take that burden off their plate, you will see a much larger candidate throughput. You're going to reduce that fall off, and so we have worked with clients where they are losing so many candidates in that transition and that's too late in the process to lose them.

Speaker 1: 25:03

I think that's a really good point. You talk about candidate throughput. Often that's equated to how many candidates can you get through the process the more the merrier Whereas what you're saying is how do you retain candidates through each step of the process? So that you can know you only have the most qualified and the most interested candidates and that they're hitting every stage they need to hit before you make your final decision. Exactly, love that.

Speaker 3: 25:26

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 25:27

See process.

Speaker 3: 25:28

There we go. I feel like you are the process queen. I do like process. I do love a good process Awesome yeah.

Speaker 1: 25:33

All right, so next time, what are we talking about? Um show technology next time. Yeah, let's do technology. It's going to be hard to keep me from no, that's gonna be hard.

Speaker 3: 25:43

Yeah, that's your box.

Speaker 1: 25:44

I love technology.

Speaker 3: 25:46

Anything specific in technology or TBJ.

Speaker 1: 25:48

Let's leave it a surprise. Okay, all right, okay good. Good, whitney, do we have any hot takes on hot topics today?

Speaker 2: 25:55

We do. This is a favorite of yours. I think you'll appreciate it. Mine it's. Yeah, it is from our friends over at HR Brew Shameless Plug. If you're not subscribed to their newsletter, please do. It's excellent.

Speaker 1: 26:09

They are great, and that was not a sponsored plug.

Speaker 2: 26:12

Absolutely not. I just love them that much. Okay, so, uh, bankrate just did a survey, conducted a survey where they interviewed over 2000 full-time workers and they found out that a four-day work week is more popular than even remote or hybrid work options.

Speaker 1: 26:32

Like aggressively, so right. It was like 81% of people are interested in a four-day work week and like 68% would prefer hybrid work or fully remote.

Speaker 2: 26:42

That's correct, awesome.

Speaker 3: 26:45

Can I ask a clarifying question? Yes, so are we talking four days, 40 hours, four 10-hour days, or are we talking four days, eight hours, 36 hours?

Speaker 1: 26:54

Let's go four 10s, four 10s. Okay, four 10s Yep Versus hybrid slash remote. Okay, I'm in, let's make it happen. You'd rather do four days in office.

Speaker 3: 27:03

Yeah, I'm gonna. I'm gonna take off this Friday and every Friday from now on.

Speaker 1: 27:08

Okay, so that's interesting because I asked my team. It was a 50-50 split Really.

Speaker 3: 27:12

Yes.

Speaker 1: 27:13

So my team said there were individuals who said, well, I love coming into the office, like I live close to the office, it like four days for sure, yeah. But then others who said I would rather have more flexibility in where I work and work five days, yeah.

Speaker 3: 27:30

Interesting.

Speaker 1: 27:31

So for me, I go back and forth on this one, because I really do like the idea of a four-day work week. Logistically, I do want to talk a little bit.

Speaker 2: 27:42

Well, let's talk about the challenges of a four-day work week.

Speaker 1: 27:45

But I also know like I have a lot of family in California. So if you said, okay, well, hillary, you're gonna have to take PTO whenever you want to go visit them. Versus I'm gonna go work in California on East Coast time, so like kind of do a weird schedule but work there for a week so I can spend evenings hanging out with family, would I give that up to have my Fridays free? Good point. Good point.

Speaker 1: 28:06

On my day-to-day basis, I may say four days but then on those times a year where I'm like I want to go.

Speaker 3: 28:12

You want the flexibility? Yeah, so you know, excluding the decision point, you have to do four days or remote. Yeah, what are your thoughts on just four-day work week?

Speaker 1: 28:22

Yes, so when four-day work weeks first started to be a thing when I was young in my career, my chief a marketing officer I almost said medical officer from all of our work with healthcare, my CMO A little different.

Speaker 1: 28:36

A little different. He came to us and said hey, I want to figure out how we can make this happen. And I said I love the idea. It's never gonna work. And the reason for that is I think a four-day work week is fantastic. What I haven't been given the opportunity to really workshop through is what do you do when you have employee. When you're employee, structure does not line up with your customers. That's the problem.

Speaker 1: 29:04

So, just to define what I mean, because Dean and I have talked about this. We have recruiters and recruiters are available for their hiring managers, and hiring managers of our clients are working five days a week. So if, all of a sudden, your recruiters are not available one-fifth of the week, there's a misalignment with what the client is expecting in that service level. So how do you balance that? I think it's totally doable, but I think that's one of the issues that's holding back companies like ours from really saying, yeah, let's figure out how to make this happen. Right, wrong or indifferent, it's an expectation in a service level thing and it's your customer really that you have to figure

Speaker 3: 29:50

out how are you gonna navigate?

Speaker 2: 29:51

that with them.

Speaker 3: 29:52

So I mean it's tough because you could look at some companies and be like well, this group, this department is four days, this one has to be here five days. It's hard, you just can't figure it out. Then you start putting hierarchy in.

Speaker 1: 30:01

If all of a sudden you say, oh, hillary's marketing department can do four tens, but 75% of the business has to be here five days a week, all of a sudden there's a level of separation, elitism, whatever it's just it's not really fair.

Speaker 3: 30:19

No, it's not.

Speaker 1: 30:20

It's a structural thing but I think needs to be figured out.

Speaker 3: 30:22

But I'll say this.

Speaker 1: 30:24

We figured out hybrid work. We did. I mean, people thought that that would not be possible. You are correct.

Speaker 3: 30:29

So I think it's possible. Listen, I'm a huge fan of it.

Speaker 1: 30:33

Four days or hybrid. Four days and hybrid. Let's just not have another pandemic to force us to figure it out. Oh, please, no.

Speaker 3: 30:39

It's gonna be a pandemic that only comes four days a week, so there we go One day a week pandemic.

Speaker 1: 30:44

Yes, that's it. Everyone has to work on.

Speaker 3: 30:46

We got pandemic on Friday. Gotta go home. We're putting bad juju out there, my friend.

Speaker 1: 30:51

I need to be careful Time to take it back.

Speaker 3: 30:52

That is an interesting one, yeah, yeah. So I mean I think it's a great concept. I just I don't know how to start. I wouldn't even know where to start with it. It's a whole shifting of expectations.

Speaker 1: 31:03

It's all I think, that's. I think that is the point that is most interesting on this is that we are in a situation where we have the freedom, as leaders in our business, to rethink what the definition of work looks like, and we have to be careful to not say like, oh, four days a week works in Europe, so therefore it's gonna work for us. It may, but I think that that limits the creativity to saying what does work life look like? How do we define that? How do we, while still maintaining our unique employee experience, while still maintaining the right customer service expectations? And I think that is my big takeaways as an HR leader, as a people officer, you have fun with it. Get creative. That's my hot take. There we go loved it.

Speaker 1: 31:50

Tina, as always, my friend. Hey, it's a pleasure. Tune in again. I'll see you next time. Bye, bye, aj承鄝.