Real Talk on Talent | Avoiding Common Pitfalls in the Modern Recruitment Process

Hilary: 0:06

Welcome to Real Talk on Talent, a human resources podcast where we talk about talent acquisition, recruiting and all things hiring.

Dina: 0:20

Hi Dina, hi, Hilary, welcome back. Oh, thank you, pleasure to be back.

Hilary: 0:23

You know, it's always a pleasure to be here with you, Dina. It's always a pleasure to be here with you. If only people could listen in to our pre-recording antics. Oh my gosh, the pre-recording goldmine.

Dina: 0:32

Cannot share a lot of that. Goldmine Just got to get in the zone. We do a lot of exercises, vocal exercises, yeah, so you do. You're more of the singer, obviously. Um, random side note here I was watching a shakespeare play and, um, they were doing shakespeare in the park by me, oh yeah, and I was watching the people warm up. So cool and it was the most interesting. I mean, that was better than the actual performance. I was like I'm just watching the warm-up.

Hilary: 0:58

There you go, yeah well, that was a good warm-up for us. Yeah, I think so. We needed, I think, did. Yeah, well, what are we?

Dina: 1:04

talking about today. So today we're going to talk about the recruitment process Process, uh-huh, and then we're going to talk about sometimes people can over-engineer a process at the expense of candidate experience. How do you find the balance between candidate experience and efficiency?

Hilary: 1:23

Which I think is interesting because when we first talked about process, one of the big items we talked about was documentation. So, being like really clear on, like owner, next steps decision points. So can you give me your thoughts a little bit? When you said sometimes people can over-engineer their process, Just give me your elevator pitch version of what you mean by that and how you balance it with everything we said about documentation, clarity, et cetera.

Dina: 1:49

Great, great great, great question. So I think, when you think of the recruitment process, each person involved in the recruitment process should be additive to the process and they should not be duplicating efforts. And I think it is, but man, is it not? And I'll give you a perfect example. How many times do candidates go in for an interview? And they're doing multiple interviews and they're being asked the same question by different people in different interviews. That is not an efficient process and that's not a good candidate experience.

Hilary: 2:22

Okay, so I really want to dig into that, but I feel like we need a little bit of structure for this discussion because otherwise we might just like piecemeal parts of the process. Let's just start at the beginning and kind of talk through. What does it mean to you for it to be an efficient process, like soup to nuts?

Dina: 2:41

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like this. Okay, so an efficient process soup to nuts. So I think, ultimately, the goal of recruiting is to get great talent onto your team, and so, if it's going to be an efficient process, what you want to do is really make sure that everybody again involved in the process is benefiting from whoever was before them in the process. So, like a true workflow, a true workflow, a true workflow there, and I think that it is really important that we understand everybody's role within the process and how does what they are doing impact other people within the workflow process.

Hilary: 3:22

All right. So let's dig into this, because I really do want to kind of give some specifics and especially see where you've run into issues before or like red flags that you'll often see pop up. Yeah, because I think one piece of this that we'll probably uncover is when you're in the process, you're not seeing what like to your point, you're not seeing what's coming before or after you, and so there may be some of those like issues.

Dina: 3:50

Yeah, all right. So opening a rec, opening a rec, pretty straightforward, okay. I mean, where do you see issues in that process? Yeah, so where do I see issues? Well, first, it's a lack of understanding. Who is actually able to open the rec? Who has approval for it? Who's the ultimate?

Hilary: 3:59

decision maker, because if you have everyone who could just open a rec and then there's not actually budget for it, then you may have candidates applying to a role that's just going to be canceled because it never actually existed in the first place.

Dina: 4:10

Okay, so you know there needs to be understanding of who. This is where I like a good racy. Okay, you know I like a good racy here, but you need to understand who can actually approve requisitions.

Hilary: 4:22

And then, and how do you make that process efficient? Yeah, let's say you have a company of a couple hundred people and so you're going to have multiple groups that may need to hire or may want to open a position. How do you recommend opening, like making that rec process really efficient?

Dina: 4:39

Yeah. So I think that, first of all, let's use technology where we have technology available. So, to me, if you have an applicant tracking system that has a requisition process, a requisition approval process, built in, let's use it. What that means is you need to set up your technology right on the front end. So, you know, make sure that it all comes back to technology. It really does.

Dina: 5:00

Well and that's part of an efficient process is technology. So you know. I think it is important to understand again where do you approve the rec, who is ultimately approving it, what happens after you approve it and what are your expectations as a hiring manager once you say, or you get a rec approved, what are your expectations then of the recruiter Got it?

Hilary: 5:21

All right, let's move on from opening the rec. Okay, let's talk about getting candidates. Okay, getting candidates. Let's talk about an efficient process for getting candidates, and this is gonna be a potentially a big one, yeah, yeah.

Dina: 5:31

So I actually think you'll have some interesting insight on this too, sure hope so. So again, let's hope you have technology here and you're you know you're able to post your job. You get good organic applicants.

Hilary: 5:40

Okay, hold on. So I'm going to jump in on this one.

Hilary: 5:43

So when we talk about an efficient process, you very casually said you need a technology that's going to help with that. But when I think about that, there are so many layers to it. So you started with saying an efficient process really is elevated by technology in having a way to manage communication between individuals, process flows, documentation, but in this case talk about candidates there's that automation component of it. So an efficient process is enabled not just by where people are in, but that technology getting it out to as many places as possible. So when I think about how do you make sure that the candidate selection process is really efficient if you have an ATS this is what you're referencing where it proliferates jobs around, so it has that the native function of being able to get jobs out in front of candidates but then also make it really easy for candidates to come back in.

Hilary: 6:40

So that may be setting up a programmatic advertising structure. That may be setting up really short paths of conversion on the candidate apply side, because there is that balance of how do you get jobs out there as much as possible but have it be a good candidate experience. For example, there are some job distribution sites where their whole function is to redistribute jobs so your jobs get to as many people as possible with the fewest recruiter steps possible. But then what happens is when a candidate finds the job, they go on this like click through trail of like reference back, and so it's super efficient for the recruiter. And then the candidate clicks to seven different sites only to find the job's already been closed. Yep, yeah.

Dina: 7:29

Thank you for following my rabbit hole, listen. No, appreciate that rabbit hole which you actually made me think of, kind of another red flag something that we see a lot. So obviously job syndication is important. You want to get your job out there with the hopes that qualified candidates apply. Want to get your job out there with the hopes that qualified candidates apply. So when I think of a place where people are often looking at efficiency on the wrong end is in their job application length.

Dina: 7:54

So I will see a lot of people put out really cumbersome and clunky applications for the candidate, and what they're thinking is is that? Oh well, this will make my recruiter's life easier because they're going to have all of the information up front.

Hilary: 8:09

Yes, or they think that a more qualified candidate is going to spend more time submitting an application which is not true.

Dina: 8:16

Which is not true?

Hilary: 8:16

So you and I actually talked about this, I think, in like one of our very first podcasts around. It's the recruiter's job to make the process easy for everyone else. So and then I think that I said and therefore it's a TA leader's job to make the process as easy for the recruiter, Because if the recruiter's focusing on their clients, like the hiring- managers and candidates.

Hilary: 8:39

So what is that balance? What's the balance of? You? Don't want it to be so burdensome for a recruiter that they're miserable or they can't hit KPIs or whatever it may be. So what's your balance on that and what are your red flags for saying you've leaned?

Dina: 8:54

too far one way or the other, yeah, yeah. So I think that first, it's not going to be the same for every job. I do think that there is a baseline bit of information that you need to be able to ascertain from every candidate, and then I think it is understanding with different positions, what will you expect your candidate volume to be? And so I'll give you an example If I post a staff accountant, chances are I'm going to get a good amount of candidates coming in Because it's a low specialty, high like active candidate type of a role, exactly, exactly.

Dina: 9:29

However, I may also get. 50% of those candidates aren't actually qualified for the job Because, let's be clear, people don't really read job descriptions all that well anymore. That's a whole other story. Keep going, whole other story.

Hilary: 9:40

So job descriptions in general, job in general, but let's not get down.

Dina: 9:45

Let's keep going In general, and so there is a balance for the recruiter to find. How many additional questions can I ask on this candidate's application in order to make sure that I'm still getting the best people converting while not discouraging them from applying, and the right amount of information?

Hilary: 10:02

So it's a balancing act and that makes sense of saying you want to. There's kind of a throttle, is. What you're saying is you can add burden to the candidate process as long as it is still providing the right pipeline of candidates. But when you see that pipeline shift, you have to start pulling back and put more burden on the recruiter. And vice versa If you've got way more candidates, start putting more burden on the candidates to self-assess or to self-qualify, so that the recruiter can kind of balance through that Exactly.

Hilary: 10:37

So, how do you do that if a recruiter has 15 positions they're trying to fill?

Dina: 10:42

Yeah. So I think it is a matter of understanding positions before you go to market them. Before you post a job, what I always like to do is I like to see how many similar jobs are out there posted. If I do a quick data analysis, if I look at some of the tools that we have, I can see what the candidate supply is within a given market. If I've got a pretty plush candidate supply and there's a fair amount of these jobs posted and there's good activity, then guess what Is that in your process like that assessment? So it's going to depend on the position. So in my particular world we do that assessment quite a bit, just given the variety of roles that we're working on.

Hilary: 11:21

So what you're saying is, at a certain point you're going to innately know what the answer is, but if it's a new rec or a new recruiter, then it is a part of your process. Like, do you do that when you do like an intake call or yes?

Dina: 11:34

Okay. So you want to figure out from the hiring manager. They should have an idea of what what the candidate pool looks like. Is this a position that's easy to fill? Historically has it been difficult for you in the past? So you want to understand that. But also, as a candidate, there are a couple, two or three things. Or as a recruiter, there are a couple of things you can do pretty quickly to figure out how hard is it going to be to fill this job A if a similar job is posted on LinkedIn. Linkedin is going to show you the number of applicants. That's one data point for you B. That's one data point for you B. If you have an Indeed resume seat, for example, go on Indeed, do a quick keyword search and see what you're getting out there, see how many candidates are out there Exactly. So there are two quick things you can do to kind of quickly gauge the market and calibrate how much burden do I need to put on myself versus how much burden do I need to put on the candidate?

Hilary: 12:20

Interesting. And what do you do as a manager of people to keep a recruiter from leaning too far into the? Oh, let the candidate do the work for me. How do you balance that type of a relationship?

Dina: 12:34

So I actually think it is the manager's role to help recruiters to understand what methods of recruitment are going to be most effective for which types of jobs. So I do think it's up to a manager to understand, by looking at historical or looking at data in large, that, hey, we know that if we're posting a nursing position, for example, we need to remove all burden possible. The only thing I want to know is that you're a licensed nurse and you're open for looking for a new position, whatever it is. So I think that a lot of that is up to their next level leader to help them make these decisions and help them guide.

Hilary: 13:12

So that's interesting because a couple of things come to mind. Like, you bring up RN specifically, and that's definitely been true for the past four years, since 2019. But we're starting to see the market shift into more of an employer market. So there is that element of you have to be able to be a strategic thinker and pivot to really know, kind of, where your efforts are going to be most efficient. The other thing is thinking about the higher level like overview.

Hilary: 13:43

So you know, we started this talking about process and we're talking about working within that process, which makes sense. But there are certain points and seeing a shifting market might be a good time to do it where a higher level individual or person of responsibility needs to sit back and say do we rethink what our process looks like? Because, to your point, for the past four years we've kind of said screening for RNs, just get as many candidates in and then we'll find them the right role. Who cares? So our process changed over the last couple of years and so do you? Do you have a cadence or like a market indicator where you then say, hey, leader, you should probably go rethink your process or the expectations within that process.

Dina: 14:34

Yeah, so I think that it is a great idea to do an annual review of your entire recruitment process, and I'm actually in the process of conducting one right now, and so one thing I'm actually doing is I am looking at my different jobs by job function and by job level and I'm going to be able to tell you how many active organic job candidates we get for X number of positions. So we'll have a matrix to go off of, so that will help us when we are posting a position, we can figure out how much work do we have to do. Are we sourcing or finding?

Hilary: 15:06

candidates. Is there a risk of over you mentioned this earlier over-engineering that, and what would that risk be?

Dina: 15:14

Yeah, yeah, so yes, there is a risk of over-engineering it.

Dina: 15:17

Yeah, so I think the thing about recruitment is that there's yes, there's data, and we know I love data, but there's also gut, and what you don't want to do is rely too heavily on data that you stop the kind of the people part of the process, or the gut, or the so this is interesting because you get a gut through experience Mm-hmm, and data helps you validate your experiences right, like there are moments where you say I kind of think this is going to happen, but then the results are proven in the data.

Hilary: 15:54

So how, like how do you trust someone's gut?

Dina: 16:00

I only trust my own gut. Okay, I was going to say Number one.

Hilary: 16:02

You only trust your own gut, okay, I was going to say Number one. You only trust your own gut. Okay, okay, that answers my. So what you're saying is you have to have the right people who've done this long enough to be able to understand like, hey, we need to have these data points to help someone new learn the process become innate. But when you talk about being gut, there's that human element of we've done this. We know what works. Don't get controlled by the data, but use the data to validate, educate and drive direction Exactly.

Dina: 16:27

And the reason why is that with data, there will never be a piece of data exactly for what you need. So say, for example, I have somebody who says, dina, can your team fill us? We need a VP of HR in Washington DC. Sure, totally fine, we can do that of HR in Washington DC. Sure, totally fine, we can do that. But now, if you ask me, can we do a VP of HR in a manufacturing setting in some small town in Idaho? All my data says that we're going to be very successful in a VP of HR role. But there are these other pieces of information that I know from previous experiences, that you know, rural Idaho manufacturing. These are all kind of different variabilities, interesting or variables.

Hilary: 17:03

So yeah, there you go. We went off a little bit, but we were talking about that process, management, development, all that kind of stuff.

Dina: 17:11

So annual review, so every year review your recruitment process. Ok. And when you're reviewing your recruitment process, you should look at your candidate satisfaction in the process. I love to survey our candidates.

Hilary: 17:25

I love to survey our-. Do you do it in bulk during review time or do you do that consistently along the way? Consistently?

Dina: 17:30

along the way. So I like to survey candidates and hiring managers. Nice, I'm not only surveying candidates who get hired, I'm surveying candidates who were contacted by a recruiter.

Hilary: 17:40

And what are you looking for in that feedback, like as it relates to reviewing your process?

Dina: 17:45

Yeah. So really, what I want to the anecdotal feedback is it's usually little nuggets and bits of information, so you will get. I like to do an NPS survey. I think an NPS survey is a quick data point that's going to tell me directionally how we're doing. If I'm seeing that you know we're getting sixes, fours and fives, I'm going to dive into the specific questions that I asked them.

Dina: 18:07

So, for example, you know how's your communication? Oh, I felt like I didn't have any communication, or communication was great or whatever it is. So I like to get the feedback of all of the stakeholders. And then what I like to do is I like to layer on data, just a little sprinkle, A little sprinkle of data, but really. So I like to think of it from a pipeline perspective, like, what I want to do is I want to look at a job and I want to look at how many candidates applied and then eventually, when we get to the bottom, when I got that candidate hired, what I want to see is the difference in the number of candidates at each step in that process to tell me how efficient that step is. And so?

Hilary: 18:51

And do you ever look at a step and say you know, that wasn't super efficient, but that was by design?

Dina: 18:57

So yes, okay, yeah, can you give me an?

Hilary: 19:01

example.

Dina: 19:01

So I will give you an example. A lot of those have to do with. We were working with a client and what we found was they had a. This is going to kind of be a long answer to your question. So they had a recruiter who was screening candidates for the hiring managers. When we looked at the data, the recruiter was sending over 99% of the candidates to the hiring managers. When we looked at the data, the recruiter was sending over 99% of the candidates to the hiring manager. So the recruiter wasn't screening candidates. They weren't being additive to the process. Okay, what we found was the reason why the recruiter was doing that was because they felt it was necessary to touch base with the candidates, which is appropriate. You should touch base with people who are applying to every job. They just misinterpreted what that meant. They misinterpreted what it meant and they didn't find the best way to do it. So to me, when I'm adding extra steps in the process, that may not be the most efficient, it's about converting candidates. It's about maintaining good relationships.

Hilary: 19:59

Interesting.

Hilary: 19:59

So when you said and you answered that in a different frame of reference, than I asked it no no, no, it's just interesting how we read through that, because you say, okay, when I looked at a process, it was a very streamlined number of steps, but it did not actually make it a more efficient end result or like use of time. So we are going to add more to the process instead of streamlining it. We're actually going to add steps because that is going to make the overall workflow more efficient, have an improved focus of what you're spending your time on, etc. Exactly See, in my question, the way I was thinking of it was do you ever look at something and say you know, the recruiter is spending an inordinate amount of time on this step, but that's what I want them to be doing? Like we're trying to like choke the pipeline down a little bit more, or something like that. Yeah, you don't have to answer that, because you answered it beautifully as it is okay, just my point is saying it's interesting how we're kind of saying the same thing.

Hilary: 21:06

What I was trying to say is we were saying the same thing kind of in a different framework yeah, yeah, whereas you're saying add to the process and I was saying add to the workload, okay, got it, got it. Yes, yeah, I think we're coming up close on time. Okay, but I do want to quickly hit on the. You get to decide. Actually, do we want to talk about the hiring manager process, efficiencies, or we've kind of referenced the like cause and effect. So the process, like what you're doing here, has the downstream impacts and how you keep an eye on that. I like hiring manager.

Dina: 21:39

All right, let's do hiring manager yeah.

Hilary: 21:48

Yeah, you keep an eye on that. I like hiring manager.

Dina: 21:50

All right, let's do. Hiring manager, yeah, yeah. So so wait, let me ask this Go Biggest pet peeve in a recruiter hiring manager process inefficiency. Okay, hiring managers, please don't ask to review your candidates before recruiters send them over to you. Trust your recruiter and just let them schedule.

Hilary: 21:59

Let them be a recruiter, not just an admin like a glorified admin. Exactly Okay.

Dina: 22:04

Yeah, continue, okay, so, yeah. So I think as a recruiter, your job is to lift the recruitment burden off of a hiring manager's plate, and first you obviously we know you have to have trust to get there. I really where I see the most inefficiencies is where hiring managers are reluctant to give that trust, often because they don't understand what the recruiter is actually doing for them.

Hilary: 22:30

And so in a lot of ways, they shouldn't know what a recruiter is doing day to day Because, to your point earlier in the process, they have to make these decisions at a job level of where is the best use of my time? How do I rely on technology or the candidates to get as many qualified individuals in as possible? So how can a process help build that trust with a new recruiter or a new hiring manager?

Dina: 22:52

Yeah, so first, there's, repetition creates awareness. Okay, so the more you do something, the more familiar people are going to become with the way you operate. So I think there is a little bit of consistency and repetition in what you do something, the more familiar people are going to become with the way you operate. So I think there is a little bit of consistency and repetition in what you do. But when we think of just the true process, what I tell my recruiters is listen. You tell those managers, my job is to make your job easy and this is how I am going to do it. And so let me screen your candidates for you, Let me schedule them for you. When it comes to interviewing, you know what understand. Ask the managers what are they actually interviewing for? And help them figure out if their interview process is the best process, Is it the correct process and is it a process that's actually going to add value to the recruitment process.

Hilary: 23:38

I think that's an interesting point of saying I'm going to use my own words but essentially finding out from the hiring manager what's important to them, like what do they want to know, what do they want control of when? And so if you can understand what their needs are, then as a recruiter you can help educate, like hey, I've checked these boxes off or I'm going to enable you to still control those, but here's how I'm gonna make it easier for you or streamline that down, exactly, exactly, nice, yeah. Any final thoughts on efficient processes?

Dina: 24:08

Any final thoughts on efficient processes? So I'll just give one very tactical yes, please. So, as we are embarking on our year end process review it's not year end.

Hilary: 24:19

My annual yes, okay.

Whitney: 24:21

Yeah, let me just tell you how I do it really quick, okay, please Okay.

Dina: 24:26

So I have my major recruitment milestones.

Hilary: 24:28

Yes, Okay, Such as like open rec submit like hired.

Dina: 24:32

So I have candidate apply phone screen submitted, interviewed, offered, hired, Beautiful. Just look at the numbers between them, Look at the ratios. How many people go from this step to the next step, this step to the next step? You want to see a good amount of fall off in between the steps.

Hilary: 24:51

So you look at quantity, not at time.

Dina: 24:54

Well, I look at time too. I look at time too, but if I am trying to figure out if an individual's role is being additive to the recruitment process, what I want to see is their throughput. I want to know, if you talk to 50 candidates at the top, how many did you send out the?

Hilary: 25:11

bottom and if you're doing this annually and you have it documented, you're able to then cross-check how process or people or technology additions impacted the overall workflow. So there's a validation point there. But you have to have your baseline and the only way to know that is to document your process, have clear KPIs tied to it, to regularly check in on it and then, at a macro level, to do a larger process and consider, like to your point, you have this candidate throughput what are the different elements going into it and how do we need to adjust it based off of company changes, market changes etc. Yeah, we could have just said that, we could have had like a three-minute podcast and just said that, but that was the essence of it. It's so much fun.

Dina: 25:58

You know what I do want to give a shout out to Hillary, because you make stuff sound really nice.

Hilary: 26:03

That's why we're good together. You just serve up the content and then I market it to make it sound nice.

Dina: 26:07

Oh my God, I love it. So that's my job. Yes, there we go. Thank you, dina. It's very nice. Hey, thank you Hillary.

Hilary: 26:13

Again the Dina DeMarco and Hillary Jarman. There we do. So no musical moments from Dina. We'll save that, that's okay. Oh, but now my favorite part Hot takes on hot topics yes, Ooh okay. I like how we act, like we don't do that every time so.

Dina: 26:36

I kind of forgot about it and like full transparency.

Hilary: 26:39

I forgot, so I'm right it was the reaction I was looking for. So, thank you All. Right, well, you're not going to forget this, no, no, it's going to be a good one.

Whitney: 26:45

It's come to my attention that our hot takes aren't quite hot enough, so I'm going to spice this up a bit. So this episode's hot take is candidates. It's okay if they lie during an interview.

Hilary: 27:01

According to whom?

Whitney: 27:02

Here's why I say this that's the hot take.

Hilary: 27:05

Oh, okay, I was like okay, okay.

Whitney: 27:08

And it's based on this hot topic that Resume Genius recently released a report revealing that 70% of hiring managers have lied to job candidates during a recruitment process. Whether it's in a need to fulfill immediate hiring needs, I'm seeing some guilty looks here.

Hilary: 27:30

No, I'm like, I'm like.

Dina: 27:33

I am the brutally honest hiring manager.

Hilary: 27:36

No, not guilty, that was me being like whoa, I will attach the Forbes article.

Whitney: 27:40

But yeah, the biggest reason is to fill immediate hiring needs and the second biggest reason is to protect you.

Hilary: 27:45

Do that. They're going to leave immediately.

Whitney: 27:48

And also to protect sensitive company information and avoid negativities like revealing negative aspects.

Dina: 27:54

Okay.

Whitney: 27:55

So you have the floor.

Dina: 27:58

Okay, so here we go. So hiring managers.

Hilary: 28:00

We got to start with the hiring managers Don't, yeah, no-transcript. Yes, you need to know, because if you know how to tell your story and you know how to sell your story, you don't have to lie. Correct, you craft it in a way where you may accentuate certain things or not bring up other elements, and that's okay. It's just like when you start dating, you're not going to say like here's all my baggage, but you are going to go in and put your best foot forward. So, from a hiring manager standpoint, you should never actively lie, never actively lie. If there is something that is an issue, like a reputation issue, whatever, first of all you need to own it, and if the company is not doing something about it, then the candidate deserves to know that. Second of all, if you're lying about the job, then no one, they're not going to stay, then your turnover is going to be ridiculous and you're actually going to be wasting more time, because then you have to start all over and then the cost of turnover and all of that kind of stuff.

Dina: 29:08

All those things, yeah.

Hilary: 29:11

So just hands down, do not lie. No, know your story. I've had to do that. I've known that there were issues on a team that I had to be like. I use this example, okay, in one of my trainings that I did. I seriously dislike nougat, okay. I think the texture is weird.

Dina: 29:32

You don't have to explain this. Well, I need to explain. I need to explain. Okay, look at the texture is weird, you don't have to explain. Well, I need to explain. Okay, look at my marshmallow friend over here.

Hilary: 29:39

I do not like nougat. I don't like the texture, it's too sugary, it's just. It's not my thing. My favorite candy bar, though, is a Snickers. Okay, and it's because the combination of the nougat with the caramel and the peanuts and the chocolate, it comes together beautifully Okay. So when you are a hiring manager, you have to know how to describe the snicker bar and not get caught up on the nougat. That's my analogy of how to sell a good story. Okay, from a candidate standpoint it's a similar thing. It is. But if you lie first of all, why are you lying to get a job? Is that job not for you? Are you just trying to make yourself feel better?

Dina: 30:20

So I'm going to, totally I'm going to go on the candidate side here.

Hilary: 30:23

I'm heated.

Dina: 30:24

I didn't realize. So I don't think that people should out and out lie, yeah. But what I will say, and obviously I would never do this, but what I will say, and obviously I would never do this. Continue. Here's what I would say. Have we looked at your resume?

Hilary: 30:39

recently, I know right.

Dina: 30:41

You have to put your best foot forward. Yeah, and oftentimes you are applying for a position that requires you to do something that you've only done a little bit of. But, man, when you only did it a little bit, you kicked butt at it. And so I do know people who have gone into interviews and inflated experience that they have had in order to get other positions I don't agree with it?

Hilary: 31:11

No. Here's my opinion on this. Two things. One, remember that a job description is an ideal person Okay, You're never. If you hit every single requirement in a job description, you're overqualified for the job. Okay, so in that scenario, if you don't hit or you very lightly have experience, then that's okay. First of all, and to your point, if you have some exposure, then you know what you're going to be stepping into. So, yeah, you should feel confident, saying like I haven't done a ton of that, but I have done this and here's how I would approach it in this scenario. That's not inflating, that is saying this little experience actually makes me qualified for all that.

Dina: 31:54

So I think, where candidates feel like they could lie and again I don't I don't think anybody should lie. That's one of my downfalls is I'm just I shoot it too straight.

Hilary: 32:02

They say straight up lie or inflation because lie.

Dina: 32:07

So yeah, so you know what. So don't lie, but do spend time understanding why you want the job and how you can tell your story relevant to why you want the job.

Hilary: 32:18

Also, if you're the kind of person I'm not a karma person, but if you're going to show up and lie at your interview, then you have to be okay if your company is lying to you.

Whitney: 32:32

And that is not the kind of place I want to work.

Hilary: 32:34

You're right, and if I find out someone straight up lied to me to get a job, I'm going to be like what else are you comfortable not being honest about? I?

Dina: 32:45

mean, yeah, that's just such a bad footing to start a relationship. Those are not our core values here at Human. No, actually, I have an interview for a dentist position a little bit later. I went to dental school and I need to go ahead and prep for this. What Good luck Like good luck?

Hilary: 33:03

Yeah, so hot, I have teeth so I know how to be a dentist Qualified.

Dina: 33:09

Don't lie. I think I mean Figure out how to tell your story in the best light possible. If you're a hiring manager, tell the story the way it is. Don't paint it pretty. Paint a realistic picture.

Hilary: 33:20

I do think you bring up a good point. It is an interesting reflection of the perspective of the relationship between employee and employer. If there's a perspective that a hiring manager is just going to lie to me anyway and make everything sound perfect, then there's broken trust within the employment system. So I would say, if you are concerned, if you're stepping in and you have a feeling that you may want to lie because the hiring manager is going to lie, then ask to talk to people. And if a hiring manager is like, no, you can't meet team members, you can't, whatever, that's a red flag. Yeah, if you just say, hey, I'd love to like talk to someone about their experience, like you know, just like 15 minutes before or after an interview, if they're not willing to say, sure, here is who you would work with.

Dina: 34:05

Yeah, Okay, you just stumbled upon something Employment references. I've done that before. Yes, absolutely New thing, reinvented. But again.

Hilary: 34:17

I'm like, because I think this is probably a symptom and we should probably do a whole podcast on this. Good work, whitney.

Hilary: 34:23

Very hot topic Is if you are at a point where you feel like the system is failing you, so you're just going to say, like screw the system, I'm going to just figure out any way to get into this. Why is that a system you'd want to be in? Oh yes. And if you feel that way, there are things you can do to validate or educate or grow. Don't fall into that like it's all broken. Who cares? We'll just like throw the system out the window. There are things you can do to bypass that and to feel better. So, all right, yeah, Great work, Dina. Wow, Wow.

Dina: 35:02

Technology is next time. Technology, is it? I think we're going to talk about AI, right? Yes, yeah.

Hilary: 35:08

Artificial intelligence. It's going to take over my job. It's actually just going to be two AI systems.

Dina: 35:14

Listen, just doing the podcast next time. I'm currently not here. I'm at my dental interview right now.

Whitney: 35:19

Well, Dina, you do that. I'm going to go to my podcasting job and tell you how much of an expert I am at this, love it.

Dina: 35:25

Oh, yes, yes, listen, listen 100%. Awesome Thousands of viewers I can.

Hilary: 35:32

I can start a podcast. I have a million. Oh my god. Thank you anyway.

Whitney: 35:38

Thank you dina, thank you hillary thanks whitney thanks we'll see you guys later bye, bye.