Speaker 2: 0:06

Welcome to Real Talk on Talent, a human resources podcast where we talk about talent acquisition, recruiting and all things hiring.

Speaker 3: 0:20

Hi Hilary, why are you smiling today?

Speaker 2: 0:24

I'm smiling because you are a joy and I love doing this with you.

Speaker 3: 0:27

We have so much fun, but today's gonna be extra fun for you.

Speaker 2: 0:31

It is.

Speaker 3: 0:31

It's my day today.

Speaker 1: 0:32

It is your day, it is my day to shine.

Speaker 3: 0:35

And so you're gonna shine because we're gonna talk about talent marketing Boom, yes.

Speaker 2: 0:42

So we could go in a million different directions with this, because first it's me and I love to talk about marketing, so we could just roll forever. But what I think we should do is just set some ground rules of when we talk today and in future podcasts about marketing, kind of what is it, how is it different from brand marketing, how does it play into it. So kind of setting some definitions, some boundaries and just giving a general context of the current state of recruitment and talent marketing.

Speaker 3: 1:14

Yeah, and I'm really excited A because you're incredible when you talk about this stuff. I always pick up a little tidbit here and there, which I'll try to reiterate later and it won't come out as well, but I always get a little something If you say it with confidence, that's all you need. Okay, I'm gonna work on that, but what I also love about this topic is most people overlook the importance of the difference between talent marketing and general marketing. Yes, and so I would love it if you start this conversation with that, okay.

Speaker 2: 1:47

And I would also like to make a plug for later in this conversation. Okay, that separation and the struggle to distinguish between those two is where I see a lot of recruitment marketing agencies. They're amazing, they do great work. I'm not trying to throw anyone under the bus, but I still sometimes see some struggle to connect those two things, um, and especially in a way that a recruiter or a um, like a ta leader, can really understand and having that really true dialogue with using the same language. Yeah, um, okay. So let me first start out by talking about the idea of talent branding. So, historically, when we talk about marketing related to the recruitment function, you talk about recruitment marketing, pretty straightforward, which is Anything tactical to get jobs out there and convert candidates back in.

Speaker 3: 2:42

Okay, so sponsoring jobs on Indeed job boards in general Yep.

Speaker 2: 2:48

Anything like looking at the tools you have to find candidates email marketing campaigns to nurture candidates. You can think about hiring events like how do you promote a hiring?

Speaker 2: 2:58

event, so people show up, whether they're in person or virtual, anything that's really looking at, enabling the recruiter and the recruitment function, and then on the other side of that or, let me say so, recruitment marketing is kind of where it starts out. That's that core. We've really evolved and more recently, in the past couple of years, more and more people are talking about talent marketing and the idea of talent marketing is, it's, more of an umbrella term that covers both recruitment marketing and employer branding, and I'll talk about employer branding in a second.

Speaker 2: 3:33

But the reason that more and more people are talking about talent marketing is because when you just talk about recruitment marketing, you're just thinking about candidates, which is correct. You recruit candidates, but what that does is it separates the concept of a candidate from the concept of an active employee or an alumni employee. Okay, and so when you think, interesting, yeah, so in reality it's all the same person, you're just at a different stage in your relationship with that person. So, like you have worked for certain companies, you're still the same person. You are still going to have a type of relationship or perspective of that employer. It's just a different perspective or experience or engagement channel, depending on whether you're looking for a job, actively being hired, onboarded, an active employee or a former employee. So when you separate out to just recruitment marketing, you're missing the opportunity to build a relationship with that individual. Got it? Okay, very interesting, yeah, very interesting. So the end goal of talent marketing? Well, so let me finish the definition of the structure and then I want to talk about talent identity.

Speaker 2: 4:44

Okay, so, with talent marketing, you're starting to think about that entire employee life cycle, from pre-first day to post-last day, and so that's why you think about recruitment marketing as that stage in their relationship. But it's still part of your talent branding strategy. So where does employer brand fit in all of this? It's a great question. Let me take it from the angle of the talent identity.

Speaker 2: 5:10

Okay, so, when we talk about a talent identity, that is the identity that your employee has, or you don't even have to be an employee to have a talent identity, but it's that the talent identity comes out of. You have these points of engagement with an organization, and every point of engagement for good or for poor is going to create a perspective that you have or create a relationship with that company. So, for example, neither of us have worked at Google, right, but we both have a very clear perspective of what employment life is as a Googler, and that's because of the way that Google presents itself as a brand, the way they promote their work life, the way their employees are really big advocates for it. But then that also includes, like the union talks that are going on right now. So every point of engagement that we have and that includes I have actually I've got some friends who work at Google and, like I have like, looked at jobs with Google. All of those points give us a very specific perspective of what Google is like.

Speaker 3: 6:23

So this term talent, identity I will say breaking news. This is the first time. This is the first time I've heard that.

Speaker 2: 6:29

You can use this. Throw this out in your conversation. It's going onto my list now.

Speaker 3: 6:33

Okay, so I'm assuming this is kind of a new approach to employment, brand employer marketing, talent marketing.

Speaker 2: 6:41

Yeah, I think that's probably fair. Yeah, so in the way that it ties to employer branding, I think the way that I'll say this I don't want to speak for the industry at large A strong talent identity is the goal of employer branding. Okay, because if you think about talent marketing as the umbrella and you have the tactical recruitment marketing function, which is all about recruiter enablement and that very transactional send out a job, people apply. Employer branding is the story you're telling. So it is the brand of your relationship between, as an employer, with your employees. So if you think about a company brand, that's going to be specific to all audiences. It's going to be to customers, it's going to be to potential partners, like who are you as a company? An employer brand is who are you as a company, but only to your employees.

Speaker 2: 7:36

Interesting, so it could be your ethical drive, your give back your corporate social responsibility. It could be your culture. You know we talk about core values. Yes, that's a very critical part of employer branding. Your mission could be your employer value proposition, anything that really defines who are you as a company. And if you think about those definitions all define points of engagement. So if you do it correctly, then the way people engage with your core values is going to show up and say, oh, I identify as a human because service is a really important core value and we reward people for their community service hours and they get PTO for it and you know that kind of thing. Okay, so if you think, going back to talent branding, you have recruitment marketing, you have employer branding and, within employer branding, to me the end goal of a really strong execution of employer branding is going to be a strong talent identity Interesting.

Speaker 3: 8:34

Okay, I'm framing this all up.

Speaker 2: 8:36

We're going to have to map this out.

Speaker 3: 8:37

Yes, yes, that's what I'm looking. I'm trying to visualize this right now. So I feel like a lot of organizations don't do a great job sharing their story. They don't do a great job telling their employer brand and helping to build that talent identity. Where do people start?

Speaker 2: 8:57

So it's a really good question. I think when companies struggle to tell their story, it's not from a lack of caring or a lack of importance. Like if you think about a company's life cycle, thinking about the growth of an organization, a small organization, all your points of contact are going to be between A, b, b, c, c, a, because you're small, few people, and so the story is shared and held organically. So where I see people struggling is when they have to then sit down and say be purposeful about that. And I think it ties really well into our conversation about you know where I'm going, go for it, say it Culture and values, yep, and especially a culture by design and being intentional and purposeful. And so I think that if you don't have your employer, brand or those things written down, that's okay. That's okay Because you probably have elements that are a component of it. That if you sit down, spend some time bringing a partner to help you kind of define that, you can come up with your story verbiage, like how the story should be told relatively easily.

Speaker 3: 10:09

Well, and I think in today's market, a strong employer brand is much more important than it has been historically. Oh, absolutely it's what people care about now? Yes, a large majority, and especially as we look at younger generations, they're more focused on that.

Speaker 2: 10:24

Oh, completely and generational differences. Can we talk about that next time? Oh yeah, yes, maybe that's our next people topic that could be a really good one.

Speaker 2: 10:35

Because you are completely correct and the reason is just we live in a transparent world. You know people can leave online reviews, not just of like your employment, but you can. You know, if I hear of a company, like if I'm served an Instagram ad for a company, first thing I do is I Google and say like are these, is this reputable? And it's that idea of people are expecting that. So, as an employer, you need to be purposeful at saying here's what you can expect when stepping into this organization, not just of what we are going to provide, but what is expected of you to bring into our organization, so that we can create this experience together. Because, at the end of the day, there's actually a really good employer branding book and it's all about the get and give, and we'll do a shout out for that in the show notes but it's all about an employer brand is employers are giving you this and you are giving that. So it's a way to define that relationship from the get go and make sure that you're bringing in the right people.

Speaker 3: 11:40

So how does the employee value proposition fit into all of this?

Speaker 2: 11:47

Trying to. You'll see I'm like, okay, how do I do this? Simply, I'm going to speak to this and how we develop employer value propositions. So employer branding often when people hear the word branding, they think of like big traditional marketing agencies. They think of like big activations of a new logo or a new visual, like campaign. The way that we use an employer value proposition is it's a messaging North Star, okay, and so love that. Yeah, okay, love that Because an employer. There is a study done by Gallup a couple years ago that said organizations that appropriately activate their employer value proposition can improve retention by up to 69%.

Speaker 3: 12:33

Wow, and just from a very tactical perspective, if you are a recruiter and you're able to clearly articulate the EVP, it allows you to better identify and that's exactly it.

Speaker 2: 12:45

That's the activation piece is. It's not just saying, oh, we have this value prop statement. It's defining your value props so that your recruiter can speak to it, so that your marketing team can activate it, so that your onboarding team can use it, so you can revisit it in your annual feedback and merit and promotion conversations. That is what they're talking about when they talk about activating it. So the way that we look at an employer value proposition is it is a component of employer branding, with the specific purpose of defining that North Star statement and the elements underneath it that give context as to the why, to the goal of your EVP, and then giving your proof points. So it ends up being kind of a static North Star, but then all of the proof points underneath it are fluid, depending on where marketing is using that on their website, on branding who a recruiter is talking to, like if the job recs are different, and so that's how we look at it is. It's a statement piece that can then be activated for consistency.

Speaker 3: 14:01

So would it be fair to say that it is an aspirational 30-second commercial on why you should work for my company?

Speaker 2: 14:08

I would say not even 30 seconds, it's usually like two sentences, at least the way that we do it. There is no right or wrong way to do it. As long as it is providing, as long as it's giving you that value that you're looking for in finding, engaging, retaining and having that right talent identity. Yeah, but it's really a short statement that encapsulates what you give as an employer and like what that employee should expect coming out of that. Very cool.

Speaker 3: 14:41

Yeah, very cool. So you tell people you know, let's work on your employer brand. Yeah, there are a lot of different components. Let's get tactical. Okay what are the tactical pieces of talent brand, employer brand? We already talked about the tactical parts of recruitment marketing. Yeah, but if somebody's you know I want to work on my employer brand, what do they need to do?

Speaker 2: 15:07

That's a really good question. Let me answer that in the framework of the alignment with your company brand. Okay, because for me, an employer brand is a subsection of your overall company brand. Okay, and when you think about your company brand again, we talked about what that is. But your employer brand is just a variation of your company brand for a specific audience.

Speaker 2: 15:40

So the first thing you should do is sit down with your marketing team Makes like and it sounds so basic, it makes yeah, but, but the reason I say it that way is because, um, as a branding element and as a marketer, you should always defer to your branding team to make sure that what you have is aligned with your overall brand, uh-huh. So you want to start there to say, like, look, we want to understand how we can better message to our candidate and employee audience. And I will say, if you, the poor marketing teams, are so swamped, they're so swamped. And so if you come to them and say I need a whole employer brand project, the poor team is going to be like we're trying to help with sales enablement and revenue streams. It's going to be tough, right, but if you can go in and say, look, what are you currently doing? And have you thought about how we message or market to this audience segment, it's going to open up a completely different story.

Speaker 3: 16:43

So I love that, because a lot of organizations don't have somebody who's focused on recruitment, correct.

Speaker 2: 16:49

Correct.

Speaker 3: 16:49

Correct and to ask your marketing team to stop working on sales leads in order to help me. You know, help me hire people. It's not easy. It's not easy, but the way you position that conversation can go a really long way?

Speaker 2: 17:01

Yes, because what I have found to be helpful is let me say it this way because I kind of gave a long answer to your very specific question First thing you should do is you should find out if you have, or you should develop, a messaging statement, because having a larger, like employer brand book is great, but if, as an HRTA leader, if your goal is to focus on that recruitment and retention piece, then your messaging component is going to be your first and first thing you need. So that's the first tactical thing is you should find out if you have that and, if not, find a partner who can help you deliver, pull that together. Again, it doesn't have to be a massive thing, but it should be done right. And then, when thinking about activation as an HR leader, it's easy to then say here's how we're going to train our recruiters on this, here's how we're going to think about how it influences our onboarding.

Speaker 2: 17:54

But when we think about that brand piece, you don't own the market awareness. So that's when it's good to sit down with marketing and say, look, we would like to get a stronger story out about our employer relationship. What do you already have that could be relevant for this audience and can we help produce content for you. Can we capture employees' stories, can we think of ways to show how these core values impact our life, and if you can offer to take a lift of the creation. You're going to get a lot more response on that partnership. Love it, so I'd like to think of it as as an HR leader.

Speaker 2: 18:36

What can you do to help expand the campaigns or the content that already exists or is already out there for your marketing team and just start slow and just start kind of in that direction, okay. Okay, so can I also make a? I also make a plug, oh, please your career website. Oh, yes, I said content because I was thinking about ongoing. Yes, get your EVP, fix your career. Website.

Speaker 3: 18:55

Uh-huh, okay, good yeah, I believe, if I am correct, candidate habit is usually something like we find a job on a job board and then we go directly to that employer website to look at their website to validate them.

Speaker 2: 19:08

So, yeah, yes, great place Now. And more and more people are looking at social media, not like because they're like what is important to this company. So that's another thing to keep in mind as a marketer.

Speaker 3: 19:20

Don't forget that audience yeah. So, when we're talking about the development of employer brand, it makes me think of our last conversation, where we talked about the talent acquisition maturity cycle. Oh, this could take us in two directions right now. But there is the employer brand needs to mature as an organization matures. Yes, now there is some thought that certain types of organizations need employer branding more. Yes, let's talk about that, keep going.

Speaker 2: 19:53

Yes. Okay, I would say there are two types that immediately come to mind. That is true, yes. The ones that are most obvious for me from just a strategic standpoint are one organizations whose entire revenue structure is dependent on hires, and you and I deal with this all the time Like if your entire revenue model requires that you hire those people. Employer brand is going to be extremely critical for you.

Speaker 2: 20:22

Yep, and the other one that I would say. This one's a little more of a creative one because I'm going to throw a third in at the end. Okay, I might throw one in too. I want to hear it. Okay, actually, I'll start with the third. I'm going to just hop because it's an easy one. If you are a big consumer brand, it's just another way to get your brand out there. Okay, so do it Makes sense More content, more stories, more eyes, you know, and your customers could be employees, and vice versa. So the third one which I find really interesting is if you are in a highly regulated industry Okay, so there are certain industries where you cannot advertise your product. That could be like if you are in Tobacco industry.

Speaker 2: 21:10

Tobacco could be like medical you can still advertise, but if you're in certain medical industries you have pharmaceutical like you have there, there are rules around what you can actually yes, got it what, how, where you can promote your stuff.

Speaker 2: 21:25

But you can promote your employer brand, okay, interest. So you can't say like, hey, this is our product, yeah, well, you can. But like you're really regulated by that. But you can say like here's who we are as a company, yeah, here's what it's like to work here, here's what life is like. So I've seen some organizations where they they put a lot of emphasis on their employer brand. Uh huh, not because they're skirting the system, yeah, because they're like we want as many people to understand who we are.

Speaker 2: 21:51

And here's the relevancy that comes into that. So that's another. That was a that. I think that's a really interesting one.

Speaker 3: 21:56

Okay, what do you have? So here's the fourth one, and this you're probably going to be like duh. Why didn't I say that I'm ready? Healthcare organizations that are employing clinicians. Yeah, I mean, obviously, you know. I think that. Tell me more, though. So I think that clinicians are the work that they are doing in and of themselves is work that the more rewarding it can be, the more satisfied they will be in their career. It's a highly competitive space with a limited pool of candidates, and so how do you make yourself stand out with an audience that is predispositioned to caring?

Speaker 2: 22:39

Is that?

Speaker 3: 22:39

a bold statement.

Speaker 2: 22:41

It's not a wrong statement. I'll put it that way Because I completely agree the definition of if you are in a tight labor market, you have to have an employer brand, because you're not just competing against jobs and comp, you're competing against experience you're not just competing against jobs and comp.

Speaker 2: 22:57

you're competing against experience and I love that idea of especially if your target audience, like in healthcare, is in a service giving like connection type of role. They're going to be looking for that in their employer or understanding how can my employer guide us down there?

Speaker 3: 23:12

Yeah, Very educational, Hillary.

Speaker 2: 23:15

Thanks for letting me just yammer on. Dina, listen I really enjoyed it.

Speaker 3: 23:18

I think I've got three things I'm going to start to reiterate now, based on this conversation. So, talent, identity. There we go yeah.

Speaker 2: 23:25

I think we have a correction section.

Speaker 3: 23:27

We do. Wait, what do we have? A correction section Boop. Okay, so last time we talked about the Deloitte Talent Acquisition Maturity Model.

Speaker 2: 23:39

We did and we could not remember the highest level, the name, whatever that, whatever, please keep talking. I think my back's for the day.

Speaker 3: 23:51

So there are. In the Deloitte Model, the Deloitte Talent Acquisition Maturity Model, there are four different pillars, correct? The highest pillar is one that is personalized and digitally enhanced, and so this means that you are able to attract candidates with messaging that is very specific to their unique needs and where they are, and you are leveraging technology to do so. This maturity cycle is super cool, so we will have it available.

Speaker 2: 24:18

We'll link it in the show notes Boom there we go so then you can find it, and full credit to Deloitte.

Speaker 1: 24:24

Oh yeah, Just want to be clear on that.

Speaker 3: 24:25

Yeah yeah, except for the.

Speaker 2: 24:27

Dean Deloitte addition to it Well, you know what can I say? Big fan, that's amazing. I think that was the only thing we had from last time. Whitney, can you correct us if we're wrong? Please Will do. Thank you All right On that note. Yeah, hot takes, let's do it Hot topics.

Speaker 3: 24:43

Let's do it Boom.

Speaker 1: 24:46

All right. So this is about all the recent layoffs that have been going on, and we thought we saw the worst of them in the end of last year, but they're still going on.

Speaker 2: 25:03

I think the latest was AWS, the Amazon Web Services hundreds of people.

Speaker 1: 25:05

So, however, I'm wondering what you could tell HR leaders to make their losses the tech companies' losses, their gains, their losses, the tech company's losses, their gains. How can they take advantage of these layoffs and get prime?

Speaker 3: 25:21

talent? Yeah well, engage a really good recruitment firm. Please start, dina. I just need you to kick us off with this one. So engage a really good recruitment firm to go out and find these candidates. Do you know a good recruitment?

Speaker 1: 25:33

firm. I know several. Yes, yes, I do?

Speaker 3: 25:36

I do no. So I think that obviously you have to be able to connect with these talents. And so there is a woman called Christine Comerford and she wrote a book called Smart Tribes, and I think it was called Smart Tribes this is definitely going to be in correction section next time but she basically said that there are kind of three phases where people are. They either need safety, belonging or mattering.

Speaker 2: 26:03

Yes, it's like Maslow's hierarchy of needs, exactly. Yep. Love this, keep going.

Speaker 3: 26:07

So if you have just been laid off from a company, what you are looking for is safety in your next role. If you are an organization that can offer people career stability and you can show that it is a great time to reach out to these candidates.

Speaker 2: 26:23

How do you and how do you show that your organization has a lot of stability?

Speaker 3: 26:27

a great employee value proposition, talent brand talent identity, all of those things who would have thought, Boom, keep going, boom no. So I do think it's important to understand that these people are coming from a very difficult situation, and so it's important to empathize with that. But if you do want to get them to recognize your organization, you know you have to go out there and approach these people.

Speaker 2: 26:48

And I think that you bring up a really critical point that when someone has gone through that difficult time, they're going to be in a place where you probably should not approach them like you would any other standard recruiting outrage, and just be sensitive, be supportive and be direct. Don't waste their time. I think that's the other thing. Do not waste in general. Do not waste a candidate's time I'm looking at the camera for this one but especially if someone is going through a tough time, don't waste their time. They need a job. They're looking to move on with their lives, like move them through the process quickly, um, and then, from a tactical standpoint, like linkedin is great for this linkedin especially if it's a skilled worker.

Speaker 3: 27:31

Like in a lot of tech, layoffs have been happening, and so if you're looking for tech talent linked, linkedin is a great place to find people who are actively ready to be connected with and I do think this is a unique opportunity for organizations who perhaps traditionally worked with a lot of outside partners to reevaluate is it's time for us to bring this talent in house and maybe, look on, look at adding somebody to your team who you wouldn't think of before, but it's not often that you get such great talent available on the market and so you know if there's a way to fit them in and make it work.

Speaker 2: 28:04

One other thing you should consider too is, with a lot of layoffs going on, it's going to shake your people.

Speaker 3: 28:11

Yes, you're 100% correct?

Speaker 2: 28:13

Yeah, you know. So is it an opportunity to to reestablish your relationship with your people? I would say, be careful about specifically calling out the events because some people may not have made that connection, so like.

Speaker 3: 28:26

but just think about those engagement points.

Speaker 2: 28:28

Correct yeah. The other thing is, if you are looking to hire, this talent referral like programs, yeah, Because if you are in a stable place and that might be a great way to engage with your people and reinforce stability is to say like, hey, we have these opportunities, you know anybody? Yeah, so all good ways.

Speaker 3: 28:47

Layoffs are not fun. No, not fun.

Speaker 2: 28:50

Yeah, don't send on a positive note.

Speaker 3: 28:52

Okay, so what? I don't know, what should we end on then?

Speaker 2: 28:56

Okay, so what? I don't know. What should we end on then? Oh, I know. Okay, I would just like to shout out that you successfully chaired the panel at the PEI conference. I did. Will you tell us, remind everyone, the exact conference you went to?

Speaker 3: 29:08

please Okay. Yes, I went to Private Equity International Human Capital Operating Partner Forum.

Speaker 2: 29:15

Yes, Commonly known. Yes, commonly known. Commonly known as PEI.

Speaker 3: 29:21

There we go.

Speaker 2: 29:22

Can you tell everyone what the panel was and your favorite takeaway from the conversation?

Speaker 3: 29:28

Yeah. So, first of all, this conference is absolutely incredible. I went last year and loved it. Yeah, I mean the people who they have in this room, the way they think about talent in relation to value creation and business growth. It's so great, it really is.

Speaker 2: 29:45

It's a whole new dynamic and I really think that HR leaders would really value from hearing a lot more of that, Because in private equity there's a lot more focus on that discussion for an HR leader 100%.

Speaker 3: 29:54

Yes.

Speaker 2: 29:55

But, I think all HR leaders would enjoy going to this. Anyway, we are not sponsors or we're not being paid by them to promote this, although hey.

Speaker 3: 30:03

PEI guys, I'm going to be there in a couple months, so let's see what we can do.

Speaker 3: 30:07

Back to the panel. So I had four just incredible panelists, all of them really good, experienced talent partners, and what we talked about. Most of these conferences are focusing on board level talent or C-suite talent. What we're finding is that companies are now tapping into their private equity sponsors and they need help with talent below the C-suite, and so what we talked about were really how can you help your portfolio companies when they need to hire a director of marketing? You know a VP of HR? So we talked about functional playbooks and really supporting your organizations to make sure that they know how to bring on the best talent and they know what resources are appropriate to use when. That's great, yeah. So it was really good. I learned a lot.

Speaker 2: 30:55

I always learn a lot of those sessions, but yeah well, and of course you got to bring your knowledge and, yeah, bright, shiny self I will tell you I wore color the entire time I know and I love that.

Speaker 3: 31:04

Yeah, it was fun all right, dina, this is fabulous.

Speaker 2: 31:07

Oh, hillary, great job, thank you thanks for letting me take over, oh my gosh.

Speaker 3: 31:10

I loved it.

Speaker 2: 31:11

It was perfect all right, all right bye everybody Bye everybody Bye.