Speaker 2: 0:06

Welcome to Real Talk on Talent, a human resources podcast where we talk about talent acquisition, recruiting and all things hiring. Hi Hilary, hi Dina. Welcome to this special episode Welcome to the special episode.

Speaker 3: 0:25

We are very excited. Yeah, welcome, this is gonna be great Special.

Speaker 2: 0:30

We're talking about people today. We are talking about people today and I know in one of our previous podcasts we threw out the idea of doing like different generations in the workforce. But we're not doing that today.

Speaker 3: 0:41

We're gonna spice it up. We're gonna spice it up. Why not Keep it real spicy? We like it, like that. So what's our spice of today? So we're going to talk about mental health, yeah, and I think coming off of mental health awareness month which has just ended. I think it's a really timely topic.

Speaker 2: 0:56

I agree.

Speaker 3: 0:57

And it's incredibly important in the workforce and more and more prevalent too. So, yeah, I think it's a really good topic for us to dive into.

Speaker 2: 1:02

It is a meaty topic though it is a meaty topic. So, where do you want to start? I guess is the question.

Speaker 3: 1:09

So I think probably talking about the rise of awareness of mental health, which is incredibly important yeah, I think that there has been more emphasis on identifying mental health opportunities awareness you know what I'm saying A recognition of the fact that mental health is just as important as physical health. Thank you, Much better articulated than I.

Speaker 2: 1:34

No, listen, this is a two-way conversation.

Speaker 3: 1:37

This is a dynamic. We're rolling with it.

Speaker 2: 1:38

A recognition of what it is what it means. A recognition of what it is what it means, and I think in the context of employment, it's really become something that has become a priority for organizations in understanding how does it impact the employee, workforce, what can we do to support individuals, not just through programs? But what does work life look like? What considerations or accommodations do you offer? All that kind of stuff?

Speaker 3: 2:07

Yeah, and it's so interesting because if you think about COVID, the whole COVID experience, to me that was the transformation that was when coming out of COVID there was such an increased awareness of mental health.

Speaker 2: 2:23

I'd never thought about, or I haven't thought about that in a long time. But I think you are right that the COVID experience was so mentally taxing that a lot of organizations had to make changes with that Exactly exactly, and I like to think that at human, we just wrapped up our mental health awareness month and we did a little challenge around mindfulness.

Speaker 3: 2:42

Yeah, I like to think that we, you know, that's something that we like to spend a fair amount of time in, and I think other organizations are starting to really invest more in employee assistance programs EAP.

Speaker 2: 2:57

I always want to throw an R in there EAP, those are so critical. Actually, that's a really good pivot. So, dina, I want to get your thoughts as a manager, okay, as a manager of people, okay. How do you prioritize the mental safety, security and well-being of your direct team?

Speaker 3: 3:18

Yeah, oh, great question. So first, I think that the answer there is really around knowing your, your employees, individually, because you cannot manage everybody the same. If I look at the people who who I lead, they each show signs of stress in very different ways.

Speaker 2: 3:41

Or don't show signs of stress, or don't show.

Speaker 3: 3:43

I have some people who, I can see it, they're not willing to tell. So for me, you really have to understand your team, you have to understand how to communicate with each person, and you have to be vulnerable yourselves, which will enable them to be vulnerable.

Speaker 2: 4:00

You said two things I want to underscore. The first is you said something along the lines of I know they don't verbalize it or they don't show it, which means that you are aware of their personalities, the way that they handle situations, to recognize that I will not see something here and I will not. They may not come to me, so I have to be proactive in knowing them, the relationship and and thinking about that. Um, and then what was the second thing? You said it was around, was around yourself, I got. So the first one was so good.

Speaker 3: 4:34

You know what I don't? It'll come back to me, If it was important enough.

Speaker 2: 4:36

It'll come back to me, but I think that that's incredibly important to be able to understand your people and and be able to customize your support or the like red flags you have to look for, because if you don't catch something early on, like that's when issues start to come through, like as a man. As for me, as a manager, I genuinely care about my people and I want them to be in a good mental place, because it's also my job to make sure we're getting the work done, and if I have an employee who goes past their limits, then it makes it harder on the team at large. So I want to keep everybody balanced and successful and doing well.

Speaker 3: 5:14

Yeah, and you know they say, just even from a business perspective, you know they say people don't quit their jobs, they quit their boss. Yep, they quit.

Speaker 2: 5:23

I very much believe that.

Speaker 3: 5:25

In my mind, some of the best leaders are the people who take the time to know you and every week, when you're meeting with your leader which I'm a big fan of weekly cadence and then on demand as needed, you know, but it's not. You know how was work this week? It's hey, how are you doing? What's going on? I think when you develop a personal relationship with your team, you are able to develop that trust and so hopefully if somebody is struggling, they will come to you and then you know I'm not a psychologist, I can't solve somebody's problems, but at least I have the resources to point them to.

Speaker 2: 6:06

Yep or flag and say, hey, just ask those questions. And I think what I want to ask you is this let's say what questions do you ask to help you identify potential concerns or what behaviors do you look for? That could be a flag that someone may be struggling mentally.

Speaker 3: 6:24

Yeah, yeah. So I really do like to start every one-on-one I'm having with hey, how are you feeling this week? What's working, what's not working? Is there anything that you're worried about?

Speaker 2: 6:34

What are you looking for in those answers? Like to do that pulse check. You know what I mean.

Speaker 3: 6:42

Yeah. So for me, what I see a lot of is hesitation or a delay in responding, or it's when you see people holding back a little bit. That's usually where I want to dive in. But what I will say is there's also differences in how people respond. I think there's probably generational differences in how people communicate.

Speaker 2: 7:03

We said we're not going to do generational differences, but it is everywhere.

Speaker 3: 7:06

It's so true, there's generational differences and how people communicate about their mental health.

Speaker 2: 7:12

Yes and I think so let's dig into that a little bit, because it's completely true and younger generations get a little bit of a bad rap for that, because older generations I think there was a lot more priorities for stoicism and maintaining appearances, you know, even going to see a therapist with something you didn't talk about. There's a meme somewhere where it's like oh, my mom's generation, like you, don't talk about therapists, whereas, like my generation, millennials were like guess what my therapist told me yesterday. We're like very open about it. But I think that's important because if you understand how people may prefer to show up or what they're comfortable sharing, you have to kind of meet them where they are.

Speaker 3: 7:54

You absolutely do, you absolutely do. So I think yeah, as much as we weren't going to talk about generational differences you know, yeah, you really can't, you really can't Can we talk about burnout for a second.

Speaker 2: 8:04

Okay, let's from it. Yeah, you really can't. You really can't. Can we talk about burnout for a second? Okay, let's do it. So this is my favorite mental health topic within the workplace. Okay, because so much of mental health is kind of all encompassing, like life. All encompassing.

Speaker 2: 8:20

No, but as a manager, I take burnout of my team very personally, because burnout is not entirely a work issue. It's again people burn out because they have run dry, they've burnt the candle on both ends, and that's not just in work, um, but it's something where I actually recently had a conversation with someone where I was like, okay, time out, this is you. I was like we've been talking, I've been asking these questions, I've been asking these questions and I've been concerned about you, just because there's a lot going on. Here are the three things I'm seeing that to me indicate burnout. How are you feeling?

Speaker 2: 8:59

Yeah, and then I made them shut their computer off and do nothing for the rest of the day. I was like you need to go figure this out. And I feel really passionate about it because, as a manager, I have the most responsibility to help my people recognize their own limitations, capacities and, more importantly, figure out how to navigate their management of everything they have going on, and so I take a lot of pride and responsibility in thinking about burnout and helping my people with that. I'm going to give the example of when my manager came to me and said you have burnout like you're burnt out. You need to go away tomorrow, and I so. I was in a meeting. I was in a meeting with Derek and Richard two of our fellow human peers and apparently we had a great conversation.

Speaker 2: 9:47

Well, the next day I was talking to them about something else and Richard said to me like oh yeah, we talked about X, y and Z yesterday. And I looked at him and I was like no, we didn't. He's like what are you talking about? We literally had a meeting yesterday where we talked about these things. This is the agenda, this is what you told me, these are the decisions that we made. I literally have no memory of that meeting.

Speaker 3: 10:08

Yeah, no memory of that meeting Time to step back and take a break.

Speaker 2: 10:12

And so, like my manager called me and said, like the fact that you just completely your mind just stopped processing, your mind stopped processing and the kind of with that is, my mind stopped processing because I had so many things I was trying to deal with that I couldn't really start anything either. Yeah, I think that's another big sign that I see in myself is if I am like pushing through, but it's like molasses and my brain just won't go anywhere then.

Speaker 2: 10:41

Um, then I'm like, okay, like if I push through, nothing's gonna get done, it's just gonna make it worse. I need to give myself a break.

Speaker 3: 10:47

Give yourself a break. Yeah, you know, I think back, as when I first started managing people, I always considered myself a workhorse Like I could work 70 hours a week and I would be totally fine.

Speaker 3: 10:58

And I think that I expected that of my team when I first started leading and my expectation was that you're going to do whatever you need to do to get the job done. And to me, if that was impacting you mentally, it wasn't sorry. This job's not the right job for you. Okay, boomer, I know, I know right, it took me actually getting burnt out to the point where I took a couple weeks off work. I was like I can't do this, to realize that, wait, this isn't the right way to lead people, this isn't the right way to work for yourselves. And so for me, when I was coming up with burnout you know it was I had a hard time organizing my day. I had a hard time. I would sit at my computer and I just remember staring at my screen going, okay, get started, dina, get started. And you can't get started. The littlest task. They seemed like these insurmountable projects and I was like, oh, my goodness. And I was like, okay, you know what, it's time for a break.

Speaker 2: 11:59

And so. So let me ask you this when, um? So let me ask you this how do I ask this question? Where you sit today as a leader, you have teams underneath you, but you're also dealing with leaders or clients I don't want to say above, but you're kind of between your people and then this other side, the other side, it tends to be a little bit older that your team below you tends to be a little bit younger. So how do you navigate the work expectations with someone's personal definition of mental health? How do you navigate that with your team when you know you have these pressures from like clients behind you?

Speaker 3: 12:45

Yeah, so I will say I am a much better leader now than I was 15 years ago.

Speaker 1: 12:52

I hope so. Yeah, there we go To me.

Speaker 3: 12:57

somebody's mental health is, first and foremost, most important. Your job is your job. Your mental health is your health, 100%. So I stand up for my recruiters. If we have a client who has unrealistic expectations, I will go to bat for my recruiter all day, every day, and I will tell my recruiter number one that your health is number one. You need to take some time. I don't want you worrying about this. You don't need to stress about this and I'm pretty adamant about that.

Speaker 2: 13:26

And I love that because I'm the same way. What happens when the asks you're receiving you feel like are overly?

Speaker 3: 13:35

sensitive. Okay, are you saying, like my employees asking for something a bit more than I think is yeah, like, how do you navigate that when?

Speaker 2: 13:43

their definition of mental health you think is a little too far on the spectrum for what you're used to. Yeah, yeah, you know.

Speaker 3: 13:51

Yeah. So how do you navigate that? Yeah, so gosh. So again, I think, as I've gotten older not just as I've kind of grown in leadership roles as I've gotten older, I've realized that everybody needs to take space in a unique way, and whatever that way is, I'm not going to look down upon or judge and so the job is the job and you have to be able to do the job. But if there are things outside of that that are making your, your personal life, your mental health, whatever, it is very difficult, then I think it's right to have a conversation around it, you know. So I say good about, for yourself.

Speaker 2: 14:41

Well, and I like the way you said that is like this is a a job and we have to figure out a way to do the job. And, as a manager, I'm going to help you figure that out, even if I don't fully understand your needs, because we've been talking a lot here at human about the like what is the business investing into a work experience? What is the expected behavior or buy-in of an employee so that we reach our shared goals? And I think that is such a perfect example of how that happens at an individual level. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 3: 15:13

I mean so I remember we would have. We had some recruiters in the past who you know would have difficult conversations with hiring managers or clients, whatever, and be like you know, I need a mental health day. Whatever it is, yeah, then this may not be the right job for you, and I say that because this is the job. The job is difficult conversations, and that doesn't mean that you're not a good person. There is this fact that sometimes a job isn't the right job for you.

Speaker 2: 15:40

Well, and you have done a great job in the time that you and I've worked together of having those discussions to say, look, this is the job, and if this is causing you issues to a point where it's not healthy for you, let's talk about what the right job looks like and if there's a place here at Human, let's get you in it, or let's figure out a way that that. I know you had people on your team where you've created roles for them because there was a need, a desire and they were a better fit to support the business in that way, and I think that is such beautiful management of individuals.

Speaker 3: 16:12

You never want somebody in a position where they don't like coming to work. Nobody wants that. Nobody wants to work in a job where they're like, oh gosh, I don't want to come in, I don't have to talk with that client. That's not the right position for you.

Speaker 2: 16:27

You should be happy in what you're doing. I'm going to challenge that a little bit because I do think you need to be happy, but I think the balance is you're not going to be happy all the time, like.

Speaker 1: 16:37

I had a moment today, yeah.

Speaker 2: 16:41

I had a moment today. Yeah, I had a moment, she had a moment, but I had you and I had Whitney who said, okay, what we had planned is not going to work for you today. Yeah, so what are we going to do? Okay, yeah, but the truth is I don't always love what I do every day. Yeah, but I understand that the days that it's rough, it's rough here, but overall, I'm in a safe psychological place. I've got great support. I adapt where I need to be. I think that's the balance. I want to say is, there is no such thing as a job where you're happy to go lucky the day, but is it a job where you can feel fulfilled and challenged and have the right support for those moments that you need it?

Speaker 3: 17:23

Yeah, so I would love to hear from you. So what do you do for your mental health?

Speaker 2: 17:30

For my mental health, yeah, so that's a great question.

Speaker 2: 17:34

So I love meditation. I use Headspace Okay, the use Headspace, the app Headspace because I can just do like little 15 minute like they've got different lessons, different length times but like just 15 minutes of just mental health. There I am also. Is it one of the personality tests? One of the things that I value is balance, and so it is very important for me that I turn off my computer and have a couple of hours at night where I am reading a book, I'm watching TV it doesn't matter what I'm doing, but I have to have space. So I'll sit down, I will work through lunch, I'll have a good solid, you know eight, 10 hour day, whatever it needs to be done, but then I have to turn it off. I cannot go from work to sleep because I'll wake up feeling exhausted.

Speaker 3: 18:28

Yeah, no, that's a good point.

Speaker 2: 18:29

Yeah, I think those are the big ones. What about you?

Speaker 3: 18:34

I'm into meditation too. I like that. I'm not great at it, but that's the thing is, you don't really have to be.

Speaker 2: 18:39

No, it's just the having the, it's just slowing down, slowing down.

Speaker 3: 18:43

And then I do find like just I'm kind of bummed, I broke my arm.

Speaker 2: 18:47

I know Soccer was a big deal for you, exactly, or is?

Speaker 3: 18:50

Yeah, you're not dead. It's not for four to six weeks, but like I loved exercising to the point where I'm like like. For me, that was the best you know, and so I miss that now. So these next four to six weeks may be a bit tough for me.

Speaker 2: 19:05

Hillary, I'm going to lean on you.

Speaker 3: 19:06

I'm here for you. I will say one other thing.

Speaker 2: 19:08

You probably have this as a like good emotional balance. Um, I have two pet rabbits. Oh yeah, petting the rabbits Because they are. You know, rabbits are a little skittish because they're prey animals and so you have to go into them like calmly, okay, so if I am, like oh, there we go.

Speaker 2: 19:26

So it's like I have to have this moment where I'm like, okay, I'm going to go hang out with the rabbits, okay, take a breath, go in with calm energy, and then they're so mellow that just sitting and petting them it's like almost like a form of meditation. Oh yeah, I can see that.

Speaker 3: 19:38

Yeah, Very nice. Yeah, okay, animals, save the day, always do, always do.

Speaker 2: 19:43

Yeah, I'm just your little buddy, oh my little sweet buddy Bukatini.

Speaker 3: 19:48

Yeah, Amazing.

Speaker 2: 19:49

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 19:50

So let's talk about this Animals in the workplace.

Speaker 2: 19:53

Very positive for mental health.

Speaker 3: 20:04

Yes, pro, pro, do it, do it easiest discussion ever. Um, any final words on mental health, you know. So I think that, um, what I would like to say is I I really do like the awareness of mental health that's happened over the past couple of years. I like to see employers leaning into this, and I do think it's important that employees um really make sure that they are, that the position is the right position for them, and that they're also vocal for their needs, about their needs. Yeah, so that's what I gotta say.

Speaker 2: 20:31

Yeah, oh, I think. One last tie into recruiting Make sure your recruiters know what the different solutions are, Because I will say, I've had many instances where I didn't know what the EAP or employee assistant program was until I had one of my people come to me and say what does this company offer? So I think it's important that during recruitment and during promotions, like if you've been promoted to a people management role, I think it's important that TA and HR teams are very proactive in saying here are the formal things we offer and also here is how we can help you navigate one-on-one situations with your team. Agreed, oh, we also have or I should say we have, but we're moving out of this office the health room.

Speaker 3: 21:11

Oh, we do. Yes, yeah, health and wellness room.

Speaker 2: 21:13

Quiet room. Go be in a quiet space.

Speaker 3: 21:17

I do enjoy that.

Speaker 2: 21:18

It's a good spot. I mean, it's not a sleep, nap yes that's what we need our sleep pods, 100% meditation, pro sleep pods here, yeah.

Speaker 3: 21:33

Oh, sleep is so critical.

Speaker 2: 21:34

Oh, 100%. We've talked about sleep revolution by Aron Huffington before in one of these podcasts. Sleep is so important 100%.

Speaker 3: 21:42

I am a huge fan of sleep. Huge fan of sleep. I mean, if I don't get my eight hours, forget it, and I get eight hours.

Speaker 2: 21:50

You need your eight hours. I have no follow up to that because, answers yes, great, awesome. We do have a correction section, dina. Correction section. Thank you. So the last time I was talking about the point of no return, I could have sworn that there was like an official aviation title for it. There's not, I was wrong. It's just pnr.

Speaker 2: 22:14

Point of no return yeah there's also what was the other one? The critical point, the difference is, the point of no return is essentially saying you cannot get back to an uh, to a landing strip or to the airport, and it's based on fuel, fuel but like weather conditions, plane condition, everything that um that would go into determining the distance you can fly, um, and then the critical point is essentially it has to do. It has less to do with returning somewhere and more saying in this moment, everything has to be working for us to like take off, for example, we have to have a certain air speed, things have to be working. So it's that time when everything has to be working correctly in order to have a successful flight.

Speaker 3: 22:59

Okay, both things that, personally, I never want to hear about again, because when I hop on a plane, I just assume it's going to be perfect. It's always perfect, so good, don't read the news. No, I will not. No.

Speaker 2: 23:10

Holly, I'm not name dropping here Whitney. I will say my husband has his private pilot's license, okay, and so I have very little fear of airplanes, okay.

Speaker 3: 23:22

You know, I hop on a plane and I am out like a light, going back to the whole sleeping thing.

Speaker 2: 23:27

You put me on a plane and I am out. Yeah, so you don't even have time to be afraid. I love flying. I really do.

Speaker 3: 23:33

I don't mind it, I like it, although I'm super particular about my seats. Yeah, I mean like I will not sit in the middle seat.

Speaker 2: 23:39

I will if I need to.

Speaker 3: 23:40

I have sciatica, so my legs have to stretch out all the time, which is my whole.

Speaker 2: 23:44

That's fair, but I'm like if it's a 45 minute flight, 45 minutes maybe in the car, behold okay.

Speaker 3: 23:49

Yeah, you're braver than I well, I'm just. It's all about like yeah, 45 minutes, yeah, not difficult. No, I'm not doing it.

Speaker 2: 23:58

Okay, so we do have our differences.

Speaker 3: 24:00

So this goes back to my mental health. I'm not sitting in the middle seat. Totally fair. Okay, totally fair. I think we've gone off the rails.

Speaker 2: 24:08

Whitney hot takes for hot topics. My friend, what do we got today?

Speaker 1: 24:11

You've got me on animals in the workplace, and I am here to announce that research has shown that having pets at the workplace boosts morale, yeah, improves the work atmosphere and increases productivity. So my question for you is if you you can choose any animal you would want, what would it be to to join you in the workplace?

Speaker 2: 24:35

oh okay, I've got a good one for this oh, I'm, I'm picking my dog Buddy. I mean I figured you would. I mean it's kind of a boring answer, he is.

Speaker 3: 24:44

He's a delightful angel, he is a delight.

Speaker 1: 24:46

Let's assume Buddy's off the table. You have a pet for at home? Okay, and then you can have anything you want.

Speaker 2: 24:51

I'm going to tell you what mine is.

Speaker 3: 24:52

Okay.

Speaker 2: 25:03

Okay, go, oh, oh, an alpaca, okay, no, that's pretty good, why? Well, first of all, have you seen their faces? Yeah, okay, they're. So I can totally get behind that and they're fuzzy and they're ridiculous. Okay, and you could dress them up like they're just, they would be both, um, they're, they would be calming because they're fuzzy and you could hug them and you could snuggle them or whatever you wanted, um, but they would also be, I think, a level of like comic relief, because they're just so ridiculous. Okay, like they're just. I feel like the perfect balance okay, you're you're not gonna be barking or anything.

Speaker 3: 25:31

You're really making me rethink my answer of an elephant. Please give me the logic. I'm ready. I'm ready. Well, first, I just like them because they're very smart creatures. You're training them to do your work for you possibly. I don't know how happy would you be if you were at your work and all of a sudden a little trunk is sticking its head over.

Speaker 2: 25:53

You're, honestly, great answer. Yeah, I was not expecting that. An elephant. You walk you to your car, hop on, boom, boom. Dina. Thanks for being here today. Oh, hillary, you know what? Thank you, it's so important to talk about this stuff and I really, yeah, I appreciate your insights on it. So thank you, yeah hey, and I appreciate yours and thank you for being my support when I need it oh, and thank you for being mine.

Speaker 3: 26:15

Of course, I'm gonna go meditate now.

Speaker 2: 26:16

Sounds good All right.

Speaker 1: 26:18

Namaste Bye.

Speaker 3: 26:19

Dina.