Speaker 2: 0:06

Welcome to Real Talk on Talent, a human resources podcast where we talk about talent acquisition, recruiting and all things hiring. Hey, dina, hi, hilary, do you want to do a special episode? I totally do, okay, okay.

Speaker 3: 0:25

What do you want to do? A special episode, I totally do. Okay, okay, what do you want to do? I would love for us to react to people's videos. Is this the idea you just had? Oh my God, yes, let's do it. Okay, that sounds perfect.

Speaker 2: 0:37

I think Whitney picked out some for us to look at. I think she did. And then we're like I think she did, whitney picked out some videos for us. She did, she did, and they're all related to hiring and employment.

Speaker 3: 0:49

Yes, let's watch them. Oh, I think so. This is gonna be great.

Speaker 1: 0:52

All right, fine I'm sorry to have to come back to this, but there is a concerning trend affecting the job market right now that everyone needs to know about. So companies are doing something right now called ghost job postings, where they are posting jobs online with no intention of hiring for those positions. This means thousands of people probably you at some point will apply to a job online for absolutely no reason and not hear back, thinking it's your fault, when it's not. Companies are doing this for a few reasons. Number one they're trying to make it look like they're growing and successful to maybe competitors or other people in the market.

Speaker 2: 1:28

Okay, have you ever?

Speaker 3: 1:29

had a client. No, admit to that. Yeah, no, I've never Like, so I know people do.

Speaker 2: 1:34

evergreen positions where you're constantly recruiting for a position, but that's because you have a steady stream of openings you have to fill.

Speaker 3: 1:40

Yeah, I've never heard of somebody posting fake jobs to look like they're growing Never. No, I'm calling BS on this one. I kind of want to dig into that a little bit more.

Speaker 2: 1:53

It's an interesting thought, but when I look at it it's like there are so many ways to validate if an individual is growing. Linkedin, for example, will actually say how many people have changed roles into it, so you could super easily disprove. Oh, you have a thousand openings, but you've only hired 15 people in the last three months.

Speaker 3: 2:12

Yeah, so what I'm thinking about is the action, like so there are jobs that are posted that are not actual jobs. That has happened forever. So like, give me an example. Yeah, so first this idea of evergreen requisition. Yeah but that's a real job though, but not necessarily so. Let's use an example that a company, a pest control company, is going to continuously keep a technician job open year round. What they're trying to do is fill up the pipeline of candidates within there for when they need to do peak season hiring.

Speaker 1: 2:48

And two they're creating sort of a standby list so they have some names ready in case they ever decide to.

Speaker 3: 2:53

They need to do that differently, so companies need to do that differently. You should be really transparent that, hey, we're building a talent pipeline. Well, that's where a talent community comes in.

Speaker 2: 3:02

Talent community, exactly Like. That's different than having a job position open. But my thing is if you do hire throughout the year, you can have two benefits. You can get candidates so that your database is being built, but if you know that you are going to have to hire someone in the next two to four weeks, that's not a lie.

Speaker 3: 3:24

Yeah, no, I agree. Okay but I agree with you.

Speaker 2: 3:28

If you're trying to hire someone and you have the benefit of building your database, nothing wrong with that Great. If you're trying, yeah, if you're actually going to pull the trigger, if it's a natural, organic part of the process. But if you're just trying to get people into your system, do a talent community.

Speaker 1: 3:49

Yeah, exactly that. One feels super self-serving. And number three they're kind of doing the employer version of casual job searching, where they are putting these job postings out there with no intent really to hire, unless the absolute perfect person applies.

Speaker 3: 3:57

That is true, that happens.

Speaker 2: 4:00

And so. But here's my thing with this yeah, because I don't have. I've never seen someone where they're like you know what. I may want to upgrade my marketing manager. Yeah, so I'm just going to leave it continuously open Because, unless it's a position where you're constantly filling, the odds of that employee seeing their own position posted on the website it's a high probability. So then you run the risk of, if you don't have a good person in the role, you need to actively work to replace them.

Speaker 3: 4:32

Yeah, so where I actually have seen people do this is, if it is. I'm just going to make up a bad example here. There's a company that employs engineers. They have 50 engineers and they'd like to upgrade 20 of them, but they don't want to actively do any. They're going to post a job and hope that they get rockstar candidates in there, and if they do, they'll slowly upgrade those 20.

Speaker 2: 4:54

But I think that's different, and I'll tell you why. I'll tell you. Well, from the example I was talking about, what he's saying is like they have these positions open with no intent to actually hire you. Okay, my thing is, if you have it open and they're like, oh, you're a great person, if we get the right person in, then we will hire them.

Speaker 1: 5:16

Yes.

Speaker 2: 5:16

That's not a false job. Oh, I completely agree with you. So then there's nothing wrong with that having it continuously open, because you would always hire the right person that comes in Completely agree with you.

Speaker 3: 5:25

Yeah, so this guy wrong. He positioned it wrong, wrong yeah.

Speaker 1: 5:31

So, if you are an employer, I implore you to stop doing this. People are investing a lot of time in these job applications and, more importantly, putting a lot of hope into these job applications, which is a finite resource when you're job searching. If you don't intend to give these people a shot. Stop posting to jobs.

Speaker 1: 5:48

He is a job seeker, if you are getting ghosted? No, it's very likely not your fault. Now, to optimize your chance of actually getting hired when you happen to apply to real jobs, check out the resume resources in my bio.

Speaker 2: 6:01

Interesting Mixed thoughts on that one. I think it brings up a really interesting point, but I do like some of the things that were said with so much confidence. I'm like is that really that common? Or is what or is the real issue that the employer does not have a good internal recruitment process so they're not responding to candidates? So you feel like you're being ghosted.

Speaker 3: 6:24

So that's the whole other thing. Yeah, I would say it's. You're more likely to be ghosted by an employer with a really bad recruitment process than you are by somebody doing a ghost posting A hundred percent.

Speaker 2: 6:37

Yeah, I like that Okay.

Speaker 5: 6:39

Next one Okay, I asked a community of professionals what one piece of advice was that they've learned throughout their careers, and I'm going to share a few with you Document everything, save work, compliments, document, everything is one of the pieces of advice I give to people all the time.

Speaker 3: 6:54

Really.

Speaker 2: 6:54

Yes, oh I don't.

Speaker 5: 6:57

Yes, listen to that. It's in a folder to look back on when you start to doubt yourself.

Speaker 3: 7:01

Urgent, so well, first I will say that start to doubt yourself. Okay, so well, first I will say that so I actually have kept, like we do, core value awards and whenever I get to get get like somebody writes something nice about me, I have them and I go back and I read them.

Speaker 2: 7:10

But you should yes, but you should also do that. If someone sends you an email and it's just the subtle, like, hey, you did a great job on this project or whatever Huge on that. But I will say, um, when I say document everything. Yeah, let me hear this so often it comes in this idea of like, oh, make sure you document for HR. Yeah, not the case.

Speaker 2: 7:28

The biggest piece of advice I give to people is I say when you sit down in a meeting, especially if it's a one-on-one with your boss, and you're asking for feedback, or you say, hey, I'm struggling with this. Or like, especially in a time where, if you need something from your boss and maybe you're concerned about it or maybe not, whatever, um, or vice versa, like, if you're giving difficult feedback to someone, whether it's a peer, a direct employee, it doesn't matter I always say send a followup email. That just it doesn't. It can be super nice. Like, hey, thank you so much for hearing me out, great conversation, I appreciate your insights, whatever.

Speaker 2: 8:03

But you literally say you say what you talked about. Yep, thank you for hearing me out on the feedback regarding to your communication skills. And here are the things, here are the next steps. And then you send it, okay, because so often I have been in a in a situation where I'm like I know we talked about that, yeah, and like you want to feel you don't want to like gaslight yourself, to be like, well, maybe it wasn't clear enough, or anything like that, or even just like you do have times where you have to go back and be like no boss, you forgot, but we talked about this, yeah, and I still need your help on this both ways, manager and managee. Yeah, okay, I document, I'm huge on that. So I think, or to put it another way, communicate clearly, communicate clearly.

Speaker 3: 8:49

So what I think I'm hearing from you is documentation to close the loop, kind of a close-the-loop documentation, but now you have something that you can reference.

Speaker 2: 8:56

Yes, it's documented, but it doesn't have to be like on May 17th we had a 32-minute discussion. It does not have to be like that.

Speaker 3: 9:03

Yeah, I think. What I think is an unhealthy work practice is this idea of you have to document everything to CYA. That is not. I would never tell somebody, oh, make sure you document that to CYA. That's just a bad work environment I wouldn't want to be in.

Speaker 2: 9:18

That's why I do it I do. I do because it is because and this is the other thing is because it removes the he said, she said, and the what gets lost in memory. Yeah, because if you have a conversation, especially a difficult one, and then you write it down and say, hey, we talked about this, and you put it objectively, you say the facts and then say, and this is what we talked about for next steps, or how we're going to handle it, what you're going to own, what I'm going to own, it's not putting, you're not blasting anyone. Yeah, but then in three months, when you continue to have issues, then you may remember that conversation differently. But I'm like, hey, not only did I write it down, but like I sent it to you as like we talked about this. So now there's something that says, hey, we talked about this, we agreed to that. It is a level of CYA, but not because I don't trust you.

Speaker 3: 10:08

So I think that's that's the difference, is explaining the why. So yeah, so okay, yes, document everything. Just don't tell people to document everything from a place of fear.

Speaker 2: 10:22

Completely, but it's just. You know, we write our to-do list it's just a.

Speaker 1: 10:23

You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: 10:24

Like, it's just a way to like make sure you're remembering things. Yeah.

Speaker 5: 10:29

I'm in for it. Let's do it. Urgent and important are not synonyms listen to understand, not to respond. You are replaceable at work, but not at home. It is okay to not know everything. Not all good things are good for you. Things Negotiate your job offers, always add a buffer when giving estimates, and work is something that you do not who you are.

Speaker 2: 10:49

Okay, I love that. It's what you do, not who you are. I have stopped like in social settings. I no longer ask people what they do, yeah.

Speaker 3: 10:58

At all Well, and it's it's so hard if you so strongly identify with work.

Speaker 2: 11:02

Well, what I ask? I say tell me about you, yeah, because then they can choose. Do they want to tell me about their job? Do they want to tell me that they went traveling last week? Do they you know? Yeah, yeah, no, I like that. Yeah, there was one she said that was oh, huge.

Speaker 3: 11:15

Oh my God, Give buffers when giving estimates. Yes, give buffers. Give yourself a little bit of grace in your buffers. That's a CYA as well. Yeah, oh, I don't do CYA, I just do great work all the time You're like I'm perfect, it's fine, don't need it.

Speaker 2: 11:31

Cool, love it, love it.

Speaker 5: 11:33

Love it Love.

Speaker 4: 11:35

Just to give people in other countries an example of what job descriptions in America look like. We work hard, not because we have to, but because we want to. We don't expect you to work 24-7, but you are expected to do what needs to be done to move the needle in your role.

Speaker 2: 11:57

Go ahead. So as a marketer I have the benefit of my job is not tied to a nine to five desk, like if you're working at a front desk or if you're a recruiter. Your job is to be available. So I am a big believer that you know what. There are times you have an event coming up, you have a campaign that's being launched you're going to have to put in the time because you have a specific job to get done. But this whole idea of like the job get done yeah, the absolute, like ballsiness oh my God, it's not 24-7, but you basically just need to make sure it's 18-5.

Speaker 3: 12:40

It's 18-6. It's 18-6. It's 18-6. Gosh yeah.

Speaker 2: 12:46

I'm already sweaty from this. This is like stressing me out.

Speaker 3: 12:49

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4: 12:49

All right, okay, keep going. If you're selected to work with us, you're not accepting a 9-to-5 punch-in, punch-out job and we certainly are not a company where you'd expect to completely disconnect every week. Stop, stop stop, stop.

Speaker 3: 13:05

Do you not want anybody to apply to your job? This isn't an arranged marriage.

Speaker 2: 13:10

Wow, yeah also how like for you I want to.

Speaker 3: 13:14

There are some people who are listening to this and they're like, yes, this job is, job is for me.

Speaker 2: 13:19

I just Maybe there's not. Well, I think there are people who like love the grind. Yeah, like you can't be an entrepreneur without having some of that like grind mentality, and that's great, but especially in a business, not everyone.

Speaker 3: 13:38

Not everybody should need to grind all the time.

Speaker 2: 13:41

You need your like steady eddies who show up and do the job. So to have this idea of like we all just going to hustle, yeah, Then then you're understaffed and burnt out.

Speaker 3: 13:49

Yeah, oh, all right.

Speaker 4: 13:51

Clients or team members are counting on you to keep the ball rolling. Although we encourage setting boundaries and creating space to relax and recharge when you love what you do, you don't need to escape from work.

Speaker 3: 14:05

Okay, unless my job is a professional online shopper. I need to escape from work. What?

Speaker 2: 14:11

What this is where I think Is such an interesting disconnect. I understand Again, if you're the owner of a company company, or if you're a senior leader in the company, your job is to care about the success of the company. Yes, everybody should care. Yes, but the stakes are much higher if you are an owner, obviously.

Speaker 2: 14:33

And when you get promoted up into a leadership role, part of the expectation is that you're like you have a different. It's part of your job now, yes, yes. And so to have this idea that you want every single person to have the same level of buy-in and the same level of commitment, it's are you paying your people the same as you'd?

Speaker 3: 14:54

pay a leader in your company. Yeah, as you pay your executives.

Speaker 2: 14:55

Like what's? Why would they care that much?

Speaker 3: 14:57

Yeah, it's really bad.

Speaker 2: 15:01

It's really like. This is like toxic ex-boyfriend situation.

Speaker 3: 15:06

Like every level. I have never met anybody who's like oh my God, I love my job so much I don't ever need a break from it. It doesn't matter what your job is Like at some point you need a break from it. You need a break.

Speaker 2: 15:21

Like this is brainwashing. Well, the other thing is, I think it misses out on. How do you, as a manager, it is my job to like translate expectations to and from my team members. Yes, and so I want people who are hustlers, like if you look at my team, like they're committed, they're hardworking, they put in the time, they do the work, but that doesn't mean that they're doing it you translate it for the work that they're doing.

Speaker 2: 15:53

I'm like, okay, this needs to get done. This is the expectation. I need you to be on top of it. Let's do this. Let's make it happen.

Speaker 3: 15:59

And part of the reason people can sustain the hustle is because of their ability to disconnect and the ability to escape from work.

Speaker 2: 16:05

I think hustle should only be applied to people who are building their own thing. Okay, I'm a big fan of hustle. I mean, I think hustle in the sense of you do good work, you move fast yeah, there's that, yeah. But this whole hustle culture thing, okay, unless you're building your own company and it's like you do like this, like you grind, like yeah no, why would you, why would any person opt to do that?

Speaker 3: 16:27

I mean, there, there needs to be some significant payout.

Speaker 2: 16:29

Well, there has to be, and I guess in that sense then the hustle is cause I've I hustled early in my career and it yeah, and it paid off.

Speaker 2: 16:38

Yeah, but I was investing in myself. So this idea of like I put in the time because I grew from it, I had opportunities come from it. Yeah, but like I learned very early in my career that I was not going to work all weekend long every weekend, yeah, because I was like that doesn't further me, that just gets more things off the to-do list. So that doesn't further me, that just gets more things off the to-do list. So I'll hustle when I'm like, okay, this is going to again open doors, challenge me, whatever. But if it's just the work that needs to get done, I can do that tomorrow.

Speaker 3: 17:06

Yeah, that can wait, that can wait. Interesting.

Speaker 4: 17:11

That's my opinion, doing what you love feels like a vacation. Okay, and when you do have some time off, you're still thinking about your work because you're obsessed with it in a healthy way.

Speaker 3: 17:24

Legit, is this a job advertisement for a cult Like I? Honestly, that's what it sounds like this is crazy.

Speaker 2: 17:30

That's kind of I have a similar reaction when they're like we're all family here, stop it. Like I want to enjoy being around you, yes. Like we can be friends yeah. But this idea that like we're family here, yeah, stop it. Like I want to enjoy being around you, yes. Like we can be friends yeah. But this idea that like we're family, like no guys, we're in a business.

Speaker 1: 17:43

Yeah, we're in a business Like we got to like let's have a healthy way.

Speaker 3: 17:48

Oh my God, yeah, no, that's just awful oh my gosh.

Speaker 2: 17:53

Yeah, if you're like hey, I need someone who's a hustler Like this is where it is point of high growth. It's going to be high demand, it's like you're going to have weekends or whatever.

Speaker 3: 18:02

Yeah, so how would you describe that? Yeah, so I've got an exciting opportunity for a person who is very motivated to help us get the business to the next level in order to get here. That's what this means.

Speaker 2: 18:15

Yeah, Boom, boom boom. I, that's what this means, yeah, boom, boom. I think that's it. It's like hey, we're high growth, who has a bunch of big projects yes, and you'll be compensated.

Speaker 3: 18:21

The upside for this work is a, b. I'm hitting your table. The upside for this is boom, boom, boom one year when we hit our x goal, whatever, yeah I mean show a trade-off. You you have to show people what's in it for them.

Speaker 2: 18:38

I agree, and I think you also have to be honest about what jobs are actually critical to the hustle Exactly and how do you staff it appropriately, exactly. Yes, because you know what. I think that's. The other thing that kind of is in the back of my mind is are they doing this because? They can get 80 hours Well it's like you can now get 80 hours of work out of someone, so you don't have to hire two people. Yeah Well, that's no good.

Speaker 3: 19:01

And that's my point is saying like why is this such a hustle? Interesting, very interesting.

Speaker 2: 19:07

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 19:07

I really want to know who this employer is.

Speaker 2: 19:09

I wonder if you Googled her exact phrase. I feel like we need to.

Speaker 3: 19:12

Maybe it would pull up. Yeah, you should contact them about some branding work.

Speaker 2: 19:15

It's like, hey, no, that's a cultural issue.

Speaker 3: 19:18

That's a larger. Oh, you know what? You're right, yeah, that is way bigger than just branding.

Speaker 2: 19:23

Hey, dina, I'm starting a company. Oh, yes, it's all about the hustle. Oh, you're going to have to work like 70 hours a day. Oh, I prefer 80.

Speaker 3: 19:29

That's totally fine, it's within my wheel. Wow, that was fun.

Speaker 2: 19:36

Yes, I do like our.

Speaker 3: 19:38

that was a hot take though. Yeah, yeah, no, it was a. It was really good hot take.

Speaker 2: 19:41

Cool, well, dina, hey, thank you, thank you, thank you.

Speaker 3: 19:45

Till we meet again. Bye, bye, bye, bye.