Speaker 2: 0:06

Welcome to Real Talk on Talent, a human resources podcast where we talk about talent acquisition, recruiting and all things hiring.

Speaker 3: 0:20

Hi Dina, hi Hilary, welcome back. I tell you it was a nice little break, but we're here busting in the new year. First recording session of the new year, oh my goodness. Gracious, yeah, I mean 2025, here we come.

Speaker 2: 0:30

Here we come. It's going to be amazing. It already is amazing.

Speaker 3: 0:34

Well, because I'm here with you. Thank you, and I am here with you.

Speaker 2: 0:37

Thank you, I was waiting for that one. All this, and you know what?

Speaker 3: 0:41

That yeah, that was a little bit of reciprocity, which is helpful in networking.

Speaker 2: 0:50

All right, not how you network. No, it's well, you're not wrong. This is a great example. So today we wanted to talk about networking. We did, and that's a great example of how network can sometimes be weird. Yeah, it's a little bit awkward.

Speaker 3: 1:05

It is awkward, yeah, and if you're a naturally awkward person, then it can be, which neither of us are?

Speaker 2: 1:09

No, not at all. But let's Okay. But in seriousness, we are coming up into conference season. We are. We're just talking about your conference schedule and travel and whatnot. So I have to admit, dina, that I struggle with networking. I think there are many reasons why I don't like it and I know a lot of it is mental, which we can get into, but you are amazing at networking.

Speaker 3: 1:34

I don't like it either, really, yeah, no, not a fan of it, not a fan of it Okay.

Speaker 2: 1:39

So maybe we need to define what we mean by, like, not liking networking, because I think that's really interesting.

Speaker 3: 1:44

So it's funny because I would like my experiences with you when I have to go to a conference or something. I'm like I want Hillary to go with me.

Speaker 2: 1:52

And you're always my wing lady for networking.

Speaker 3: 1:55

So I guess, yeah, like let's define networking, let's define networking.

Speaker 2: 1:58

We talk about conferences, yeah.

Speaker 1: 2:02

Okay so professional networking yeah.

Speaker 2: 2:03

In-person professional networking. Okay, so what is that to you?

Speaker 3: 2:06

So well, there is, you know, like a conference is kind of a unique most conferences. You are there, in our case, to get new business, yep, and occasionally we're seeing existing clients and existing partners.

Speaker 2: 2:20

So the whole purpose of going to the conference. There's some educational, but it's really to meet people to build relationships that kind of thing, so is that how? You would define. Networking in that professional sense Is like creating and building relationships.

Speaker 3: 2:37

I kind of think that's networking in every sense. I just think how I think there is.

Speaker 2: 2:43

Then why don't we just call it like making friends.

Speaker 3: 2:46

Oh, because I want to make this clear. Okay, god, this is going to come across harsh, but so. So because it's weird, it's. It's a line like I have had people who I've networked with, yeah, and then they try to slide into the friend zone, and so okay yeah, so you're not building friends.

Speaker 2: 3:03

Yeah, you're building a network of literally Well, I mean gosh, that's how they named it it truly is Okay, and that's an interesting thing to say that you don't like when people try to go from a network connection to a friend. Yeah, because one of the reasons I struggle with networking is I feel like I'm taking advantage of someone. Okay, like, oh, I'm meeting you because I want you to refer me to someone else yeah, and that makes me uncomfortable.

Speaker 2: 3:33

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But if you separate it and say, like people are meeting, you're meeting these people and you're all playing the same game, you know that this is mutually beneficial. To have these connections and like open lines of communication, is that fair?

Speaker 3: 3:48

So I think that's fair. But so the way I think of, let me just say, the friendship thing. So I think if we've met each other through a business relationship and our introduction was business, and that's kind of where we landed as our common ground, for you to expect that to kind of where we landed as our common ground, for you to expect that to evolve into a friendship, doesn't work for me, because our relationship is based on a business pretext.

Speaker 2: 4:14

That makes sense, right? Could it ever become a friendship?

Speaker 3: 4:16

It could become a friendship, but like if, but here's, I guess. So if our relationship is based on business, for me it's a hard leap to have conversations with you when we're not talking about anything.

Speaker 2: 4:29

Got it. I need a common ground.

Speaker 3: 4:32

Like you know, they say, when you're older it's harder to make friends. Oh, they don't say it.

Speaker 2: 4:37

It is true.

Speaker 3: 4:38

It is, and so for me. I guess that's why I don't find networking that difficult.

Speaker 2: 4:44

Because it's not like you're not going into that personal side of yourself, it's professional.

Speaker 3: 4:48

Yeah, that makes sense. And when I network, I want to make sure that whatever I'm doing, I'm providing value to whoever I'm networking with. I'm never going to people just saying I need you to give me this, this and this, or buy for me, buy for me, like I genuinely want to understand where my business can help their business, and so I want to provide value to you and I want you to provide value to me. So I think that's why it's easy for me to network, because I like to figure out how I can help.

Speaker 2: 5:15

Yeah, that's a mental shift that I think I need to lean into more. Yeah, that's really good. So let me ask this Okay, this is going to be Dina's networking 101. Okay, st, this is going to be Dina's networking 101. Sticking for that in-person professional networking how do you start a conversation with someone? How do you begin that connection?

Speaker 3: 5:33

Oh gosh. So I just want to be upfront. I am awkward. Like is that how you break the ice? So I have certainly used that as an icebreaker, have you really? So I do think that there's a reality that in-person networking is odd and it's uncomfortable.

Speaker 2: 5:46

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 5:47

And I am an uber transparent person. In case we haven't picked that up already not taking any applications for friends. Wow, that's so awful. No, but I think it's fine to acknowledge it, yeah there's nothing wrong with that. What I do is I see somebody standing by themselves or I see a small group of people and I walk in and I'm like hey, I'm Dina, this is a little bit awkward, but I know we're all here to network.

Speaker 1: 6:10

So I hope you don't mind. Oh, you straight up say it. Oh, I straight up say it. Oh interesting, I hope you don't mind me joining your conversation.

Speaker 3: 6:16

Yeah, no, I mean, you know's great, but that's what I do. There you go, then it works, yeah.

Speaker 2: 6:24

I mean it works. I mean I'm not asking, I'm telling you Nobody's kicked me out yet, so you know, okay, yeah. Yeah, I think because of my discomfort in the idea of, like, we're making a connection for me to use at a future date and I'm going to reframe that, thanks to you.

Speaker 4: 6:41

Please do.

Speaker 2: 6:41

What I do is I tend to do a little bit more of how can I be your wing person? So, like I actually had a president at one of my old companies, gave me this advice where, if you are alone at an event, like a networking event, find someone else who's alone. Yes, go up and you can just say hey, I'm Hillary, are you here with anyone else? Yeah, sounds a little bit like trying to pick someone up, but that's the gist of it and the idea is, the reason that this president gave me this advice is, she said, because if they are alone, they're also looking for someone to make a connection with and then it's easy to be like great, like let's chat, tell me about you, and if not, then they can introduce you to all the people that they came with.

Speaker 3: 7:27

Yep, so I absolutely love that. And another part of my strategy at conferences is I look for people who are alone, yes, and I just go and talk to them.

Speaker 2: 7:35

Honestly, that's a good advice for life in general. Yeah, find someone who's alone and go talk to them and go talk to them.

Speaker 3: 7:42

Maybe I don't want new friends. I mean, I'm not again not accepting applications. I'm too old. No, just kidding, I know, but you know, I love that. You said that You're asking them. Hey, are you here by yourself?

Speaker 2: 7:54

Yeah, because you know it really is like yeah, yeah, I like that. I will say the other thing Because you and I do very well at conferences, like we meet a lot of people, like we have a lot of fun, get a lot of work done too, is my favorite question. I do this in work and in life. Yes, so good, I know it Is. I say tell me about you. Uh-huh. And I purposely do that because I find that if you say what do you do, it can be a little bit uncomfortable. It kind of puts someone in a box. Yeah, yeah. But if I say like, tell me about you, they can say like, why are they at the conference? What is it that their company does? Maybe they're sick of talking about work and they just want to talk about their newest hobby. But it allows them to answer in a way that gives them more freedom, more opportunity for unexpected conversation.

Speaker 2: 8:47

And I find it just. I think it throws some people off a little bit like in a good way, yeah, yeah, as opposed to saying like tell me, like what do you do?

Speaker 4: 8:54

What do you do, oh?

Speaker 2: 8:55

yeah, here's my elevator pitch. They have a moment where they kind of like oh yeah, like tell me about you yeah.

Speaker 3: 9:01

So that makes me think of I like that approach. I was at a conference once and it was you know, oh, what do you do, who are you with? And literally I had somebody go. Oh well, it looks like we're both here for the same target, so I'm going to move on. I'm like, oh, like, that's not networking 101.

Speaker 2: 9:17

No, okay, like that's bad. So, because this actually leads into what I want, your thoughts on.

Speaker 2: 9:26

Like I refer next steps out of a networking event. Like, so you've, you've made these connections right and, let's say, one out of 25 actually opens into an actual business discussion the next day. Right, sure, yeah, but you're going to have 24 other connections. What do you do? Yeah, yeah, yeah, like. And what I mean is like, do you do active follow-up? What does that look like? But also, how do you view those other 24 connections, knowing that you're not going to do a proposal the next day?

Speaker 3: 9:57

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think there's. First, I'm not the most organized person, but there is a bit. I know, there's a bit of a method to the madness. So I think for me, when I'm reaching out to somebody, I want to make sure that I'm always reaching out and providing value. The idea of just reaching out and going, hey, just checking in, I'm not helping you in any way. So, again, I want to make sure that I'm maximizing your time when I'm reaching out to you. So we're in the recruitment space, we're in the talent acquisition space. So when I find something that I think is useful to my network, whether it be a competitor, somebody who I potentially want to do business with, whatever I'm going to share it with them.

Speaker 2: 10:38

I like that. And how do you sign it off? Do you say like hey, I just wanted to send this to you, hope things are well Is?

Speaker 3: 10:45

that it. Yeah, I mean I'm not asking for business all the time, I'm just, you know, listen.

Speaker 2: 10:52

So, for example, Mercer, you're just connecting and maintaining open dialogue, and all that.

Speaker 3: 10:55

Exactly. And then I always like to say, hey, if you have any recruitment needs arise, Keep human in mind.

Speaker 2: 11:00

Got it? If not, I will say you are very good with LinkedIn. Oh yeah, you do a good job at like regularly posting things and like keeping that active. Yeah, yeah, can you talk to me a little bit about digital networking? So this is interesting, yeah, so, oh gosh, I'm really going to come across as kind of a no, no, no, listen, hold on, let's take a moment, okay.

Speaker 2: 11:22

As a woman we're expected to be people pleasers. Thank you, okay, thank you, and you are not saying anything mean or wrong or rude. Yeah, you are being pragmatic with your time, you're being strategic with your yeses and you can have a relationship without it being besties. So, let's just get that on the table. You're the best. You're the best.

Speaker 3: 11:42

Thank you, you are.

Speaker 2: 11:44

Yeah, yeah. Also, I have your application for friendship, okay, and you have already been approved a while ago.

Speaker 3: 11:51

So Hillary got there friendship okay, and you have already been approved, oh so so hillary got there, bt dubs um uh, this is a networking only relationship I want to make. No, I'm just kidding I mean um so linkedin. Yeah, so I have actually started declining people on linkedin yeah, decline declining network.

Speaker 2: 12:07

So I just ignore network. So so, like if I know it's just a mass ad, I just ignore it.

Speaker 3: 12:13

Yeah, yeah, so you can ignore it. I like to decline them or ignore them, but so what I'm realizing is is that a lot of people are reaching out on LinkedIn with thinking that because we are a recruitment company and I'm in recruitment, that I am obligated to help them find a job. And it's really odd, like I want to help people find jobs, like that is what we do, but the way our business works is we operate on behalf of our clients who are organizations?

Speaker 3: 12:49

And what I've just found is just kind of a lot of people coming at me in almost aggressive type asks, and I'm like this is interesting to me.

Speaker 2: 13:00

So then what would you recommend instead? Let's say you have an individual who maybe they're in their first professional job and they recognize a value or a need to build their network or start doing that. They're not going to conferences, yep, so they want to digitally network. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What does that look?

Speaker 3: 13:19

like to you. So what I found I'm doing is people are reaching out to me. Dina, I want to schedule 15 minutes to talk about how you can help me get my next job. Okay, I now will decline their invitation or I will reply back and say, hey, I appreciate you reaching out to me. Our business doesn't operate in that particular model. I don't think I'm the best point of contact for you. If you'd like to send me over a copy of your resume, I'm happy to circulate it with people I know, and if something comes across, I would do that. But I do think that what I find is a lot of people are cold reaching out and there's this kind of implied expectation of a response, or at least it seems that way to me. So that's not networking, right? No, it's not. That's cold outreach. Yeah, that's cold outreach.

Speaker 2: 14:06

You're right, you're right, and I guess that's as a marketer, do what I say, not what I do, because I personally am not great with LinkedIn, yeah, but what I would say is, if someone is trying to find a new job, instead of reaching out to Dina, you should start looking for individuals who are sharing content that you find interesting, or are the like Dina's sharing content? Start engaging with the posts, thank you, start leaving comments. Post your own content. Warm me up a little bit, but also, it's like Dina sharing content.

Speaker 1: 14:32

Start engaging with the posts.

Speaker 3: 14:32

Thank you Start leaving comments.

Speaker 2: 14:33

Post your own content. Warm me up a little bit. But also it's like what? Because I think it goes back to your point of networking is mutually beneficial. Yes, yes, and so if you're just doing cold outreach, sometimes you have to. Sometimes, of course, you know there's a time and place. Yeah, but digital networking is not about finding the person who's not standing next to anybody. It's about introducing yourself to the conversation and finding people who are already having that conversation. It's more what you said Find that group of people who are talking and then awkwardly jump into it. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 15:09

And and when you're it's the same thing, it's just in a digital form, it's an I don't know why. That surprises me at all.

Speaker 3: 15:15

I don't know either, but I just feel like it should be different. So I kind of think it is. So I kind of think it is, Although you know what? No, it's really not. So what I would say is I think people need to take the same approach to networking digitally as they would in person. I'm never going to walk up to somebody and go hi, I'm Dina, I do recruitment. We need to schedule 30 minutes right now so your company can use me. Oh, I do that. Oh, I'm just kidding. So I mean, it's kind of like a warm-up, you know, Like warm-up.

Speaker 2: 15:46

Where's the warm-up here, guys, I will say this I think it is different Now that we've kind of talked through it. The behaviors are the same, basic behaviors, because networking is all about opening up a dialogue, finding mutual connections or mutual interest or value, and then maintaining that relationship or furthering that relationship in some way. Right, is that fair? Yeah, if you're doing that at an event, there is a frame of reference that you're speaking of. Similar, yes, yes.

Speaker 3: 16:20

There's a level, there's a reason.

Speaker 2: 16:22

We are all at the same event, right, common understanding, common ground of some sort, whereas digital networking who knows, unless you're in like a LinkedIn group or like you're digitally engaging with an event of some sort, if you're just finding a LinkedIn group or like you're connect, you're digitally engaging with an event of some sort If you're just finding other people who are talking on LinkedIn, there's a little more nuance in understanding who these people are and what is the value you can provide them. Yes, so I think that's why, for me, it's like. When I'm like, why am I surprised that it's not different? The end goal, the end result is different, but it is different in how you open the discussion, how you find those mutual connections like that kind of thing.

Speaker 3: 16:59

Yeah, yeah, concur, I like it, yeah, but I mean, there really is value in having a network of people and I think, to me, you know, making sure that you're providing your network with value and not just with an ask, that's really where it benefits people, you know, and so to me, that's it. I want to make sure that I'm providing value to my network.

Speaker 2: 17:25

Any last minute pieces of advice for me You've already framed up, you've already helped me reframe networking. So even though I am, I'll say I'm very good at going to events and connecting with people.

Speaker 2: 17:37

Yes, but you've helped me reframe to make it a little more comfortable, because for me it's the, so what Like the? And then what Like what does that look like? Yeah, and also a little more comfort in saying you are connected with these people, it is okay to ask of them because you would be willing to give if they asked. And then also being a little clearer on, like the friend versus business connection. I think that's super helpful for someone like me who tends to overthink all of that. Yeah, but so any other last nuggets of wisdom?

Speaker 3: 18:15

I would say this is kind of a Hillary nugget of wisdom. I'm just going to repackage it Go and I'm not I would claim this for myself, but literally was refreshing myself on the basics of networking for the conference I have to go too, oh yeah yeah, in-person conference, talking with people don't really know what to do, simply In-person conference, talking with people don't really know what to do. Simply say tell me more. They say something, tell me more.

Speaker 2: 18:36

Learned that from my mother. Boom, tell me more. Tell me more about that.

Speaker 3: 18:41

So that's a great one.

Speaker 2: 18:42

Oh, last thing I will say I did win networking. Okay, go ahead, let's hear it Okay.

Speaker 3: 18:51

So you invited me to a conference with you last year. I did In.

Speaker 2: 18:52

California, and just meeting random people, mm-hmm, you know, saying who are you, and we were sitting at a table eating lunch, which oh she, you totally wanted networking, I totally wanted networking. Yes, so we're sitting at a table and lunch is both easier and harder to make connections.

Speaker 2: 19:14

Um anyway, long story short, met a long lost cousin of my husband and through our conversation, ended up texting my mother-in-law and identifying our mutual relatives, including like dates of birth and death and connection, and so I found him. Later I said which of these ladies with the same name in my husband's family tree is your great-great-grandmother? And he's like that one right there.

Speaker 3: 19:38

Yeah, I mean, you definitely won networking that day.

Speaker 2: 19:39

So that was wild. So that's how I won networking yeah.

Speaker 3: 19:43

I'll give it to you. Thank you. You may be invited back next year. I may be invited.

Speaker 2: 19:47

I don't know how many more long-lost cousins I have. Well, well listen we're going to keep trying, yeah, so that's great Cool, dina Hillary, I always appreciate.

Speaker 3: 19:59

You have such a candor and lack of fear when you are doing things in life. Sometimes it bites me in the butt. No, it's great, we'll see. We'll see.

Speaker 2: 20:02

Yeah, hey, let's go network yes, Also first hot takes for hot topics Sounds like Hot Pockets.

Speaker 3: 20:11

I was just thinking that the Jim Gaffigan.

Speaker 4: 20:15

All right. Well, we're going to phase right into this hot take, because usually when you go to networking events, you introduce yourself with your name, followed by your job title, no-transcript. Their argument is you should not define yourself by your career, and I'm going to open this up with just a little snippet of a video and I would love to get your guys' take on it.

Speaker 1: 20:40

Who are you? You know I'm a father and a grandfather and I'm a husband, you know. But when people ask me that question, I say I'm a professor at the Harvard Business School. Why? Because that's my identity. Okay, that's a way to identify myself, to be sure, but if that's how I see me, that's a real problem, isn't it? That strips away the really important things that I have in my life. For those who see their identity as being a successful professional, specifically successful, that's kind of an identity based on fear.

Speaker 4: 21:12

Where do you think he's going with that?

Speaker 2: 21:13

Where he's going. I have so many opinions on this, so I really like this guy.

Speaker 3: 21:17

First, I want to start by saying that I really like this guy.

Speaker 2: 21:20

Whitney has sent over a couple videos from him and I support, yeah, yeah, I totally like him.

Speaker 3: 21:26

So first, not identifying yourself with work, like if I was a Harvard Business School professor.

Speaker 2: 21:32

I may identify myself as that, just saying no but If I had a really cool profession, then I absolutely would.

Speaker 3: 21:40

I would totally identify myself as that? Yeah, no, I mean to me, I've never. I don't think any of my friends actually know what I do for a living, right? Yeah, yeah. So I think my work is something that I do, it's something that I really enjoy, it's something that I love and that I'm passionate about, but it in no way identifies me. It's not how I identify myself.

Speaker 2: 22:01

I will say it can be very hard if you are someone like us who started in our careers young, were aggressive in our careers, progressed through, and I'll speak for myself I was promoted to a big job very young and there's a lot of pride that comes with that. So it's very easy to then have that be at least a pillar, like a core tenant of your identity. Is that the word we're using for this? I almost said personality, yeah. No, I think identity, identity, yeah. But then the problem is is what happens when that goes away? That's the problem, yeah.

Speaker 3: 22:41

That's the problem with it, because you know so many people like this is who I am, this is what I do, and then it's not there.

Speaker 2: 22:46

Well, that's what you do and who you are, and it's so easy to blur that, because what you do for eight to 10 hours a day sometimes feels like who you are, but I think it's really important. This goes back to, like my networking question, where I'm like tell me about you, exactly, exactly. One of the things that actually inspired that is I have a lot of really important people in my life who are stay-at-home mothers and either decided either did not have a career beforehand or decided to be a stay-at-home mom after their career or, like you know, kind of in that middle. And it is really tough. And I've seen this happen when you're in a discussion and someone's like well, what do you do? Yeah, often there's like I'm a stay-at-home mom, uh-huh, and like people don't know how to respond to that. Yeah, which is so unfair. By the way, thank you for having the hardest job. Well, not only that, like you go with it? Yeah, like there's so many follow-up questions which I won't get into.

Speaker 1: 23:47

Like my opinion. Tell me more.

Speaker 2: 23:48

Yeah, no, but my point is saying you have now, and it's a perfect example. If you say, oh, I'm a stay at home mom, it's like if you, the first question is like oh, tell me about your kids. Now you're asking about their job, yeah, whereas like who are you? Yes, and I think that's the idea of saying it tell me about you. Don't tell me about what you do unless you want to, if you find that interesting, if you find that valuable.

Speaker 3: 24:18

It's not an easy question to answer, because it's also it's situation dependent.

Speaker 2: 24:23

You know, this also makes me think of, because this has been a book that I started and I need to restart it, so we need to make a plug for Strength to Strength, but it's that idea where it's like what you do, because it's a little different than the identity thing, though, because strength to strength is you have these strengths in your career and then you reach a point where there's a life transition, yeah, so you have to identify what the new strength is that's taking you forward in that, which I think is another reason why having that identity to your career is so dangerous. Hard, yeah, hard, yeah, hard is a better word.

Speaker 3: 24:55

It's not really dangerous. Yeah Well, I would say it is probably a little bit dangerous. I mean, let's be clear. We are all at some point going to step away from our career or decline in our career. Yeah, our career will not always be there, so I don't want to anchor who I am to something that is temporary and it's so easy to do. Though, yeah, you know what will always be there Dina, hillary, harry Potter. I will always anchor to.

Speaker 2: 25:27

I'm an adult who likes Harry Potter more than they should Never be ashamed of the things you love, Dina. Expecto Patronum. End it on that.